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I hope this thread kills itself (a disscussion on suicide)
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3593
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Yes, giving the government yet another legal way to remove people of interest from the picture is a brilliant idea.

Cause there's no such thing as a corrupt doctor.

Nope.

Quote:
Oh yea, that whistleblower was simply in too much pain.

He had to be put down.

Thy, I'm going to put this in the most simple terms I can muster so you'll be sure to understand it:

You're talking about murder that's covered up as suicide by the government. We're talking about actual suicide which the government has literally no say in - if it were to become legal.

We're talking about the immense pain and suffering that we force people to live in, even though they themselves just want to die with dignity. You're talking about the government - instead of just having that person killed and covering it up - using assisted suicide laws - in a way no such law will ever be written - to kill hackers.

We're talking about euthanasia and suicide, you're talking about something completely different and completely irrelevant to the subject itself. By doing this, you're not only disrespecting the people who actually use this thread for discussing euthanasia and suicide, you're also disrespecting the people who suffer each day because we as a society have decided they must. If you want to continue posting weirdly formatted paranoid posts, make your own thread. Get the fuck out.



This is quite a popular philosophy group discussion topic that invariably comes to the same consensus every damn time willem.

I disrespect no one when you pretend to be serious about an edgy topic only preteens would obsess over.

You will find no one here who will attempt to argue that assisted suicide shouldn't be allowed under reasonable circumstances.

We like to call this type of situation a "forced narrative/consensus."


Thank you for your time.
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Thy Brilliance



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
Nah everyone's tired of him shitting up threads now. And given the degree to which he flipped his shit over my linking to wikipedia followed by him linking to two wikipedia articles in this thread, the line between mental and trolling grows hair-thin indeed.

Just form reply and move on. No further acknowledgement please.


I think everyone is tired of you telling them what to do honestly.


No, Thy, the voices in your head don't count as "everyone".

Seriously, just be coherent, admit when your wrong, let things go once in a while. Hell, pick just two or even only one of the three, it'll be a HUGE improvement. OR you don't even have to go for "admit your wrong", how about "acknowledge the possibility that you might be wrong". I don't think anyone here thinks you're a complete idiot, otherwise they wouldn't engage you at all. It's just 75% of the time we're all going "What's he saying?" to ourselves.




What am I wrong about exactly?



No really, give me a clue here.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dude


dude

dude


CRACK PIPE DOWN NAO
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
Nah everyone's tired of him shitting up threads now. And given the degree to which he flipped his shit over my linking to wikipedia followed by him linking to two wikipedia articles in this thread, the line between mental and trolling grows hair-thin indeed.

Just form reply and move on. No further acknowledgement please.


I think everyone is tired of you telling them what to do honestly.


No, Thy, the voices in your head don't count as "everyone".

Seriously, just be coherent, admit when your wrong, let things go once in a while. Hell, pick just two or even only one of the three, it'll be a HUGE improvement. OR you don't even have to go for "admit your wrong", how about "acknowledge the possibility that you might be wrong". I don't think anyone here thinks you're a complete idiot, otherwise they wouldn't engage you at all. It's just 75% of the time we're all going "What's he saying?" to ourselves.


What am I wrong about exactly?

No really, give me a clue here.

You have an inability to entertain the notion that you might be wrong. I never said you were wrong. Also you're mistaken if you think I'm being specific to any thread and/or topic.

My advice is for ALL OF YOUR INTERACTIONS ON SINFEST.

Before you post, like as in forever and always, stop and think "Could I possibly be wrong?" This isn't an admission of wrongness on your part. Call it humility. Call it empathy. Call it having a remotely rational conversation. Hell, cal it a conversation. If the discussion starts becoming "half a dozen (or more) people vs. Thy", it might be time to start to entertain thoughts that you might be wrong.

Also, I like how you side stepped my points of BEING COHERENT and LETTING SHIT GO i.e. dropping it. I've never once seen you say "You know what? you think what you think, I'll think what I think, let's just drop it and move on." "Not fighting" equates to "not losing a fight", something you seem dead set against.
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Oneponytoruleall



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't believe the thread killed itself.

Thy murdered it.
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Feiticeira



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 1774

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
Nah everyone's tired of him shitting up threads now. And given the degree to which he flipped his shit over my linking to wikipedia followed by him linking to two wikipedia articles in this thread, the line between mental and trolling grows hair-thin indeed.

Just form reply and move on. No further acknowledgement please.


I think everyone is tired of you telling them what to do honestly.


No, Thy, the voices in your head don't count as "everyone".

Seriously, just be coherent, admit when your wrong, let things go once in a while. Hell, pick just two or even only one of the three, it'll be a HUGE improvement. OR you don't even have to go for "admit your wrong", how about "acknowledge the possibility that you might be wrong". I don't think anyone here thinks you're a complete idiot, otherwise they wouldn't engage you at all. It's just 75% of the time we're all going "What's he saying?" to ourselves.


NO

STOP
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Feiticeira



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Posts: 1774

PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Thy Brilliance wrote:
Sam wrote:
Nah everyone's tired of him shitting up threads now. And given the degree to which he flipped his shit over my linking to wikipedia followed by him linking to two wikipedia articles in this thread, the line between mental and trolling grows hair-thin indeed.

Just form reply and move on. No further acknowledgement please.


I think everyone is tired of you telling them what to do honestly.


No, Thy, the voices in your head don't count as "everyone".

Seriously, just be coherent, admit when your wrong, let things go once in a while. Hell, pick just two or even only one of the three, it'll be a HUGE improvement. OR you don't even have to go for "admit your wrong", how about "acknowledge the possibility that you might be wrong". I don't think anyone here thinks you're a complete idiot, otherwise they wouldn't engage you at all. It's just 75% of the time we're all going "What's he saying?" to ourselves.


What am I wrong about exactly?

No really, give me a clue here.

You have an inability to entertain the notion that you might be wrong. I never said you were wrong. Also you're mistaken if you think I'm being specific to any thread and/or topic.

My advice is for ALL OF YOUR INTERACTIONS ON SINFEST.

Before you post, like as in forever and always, stop and think "Could I possibly be wrong?" This isn't an admission of wrongness on your part. Call it humility. Call it empathy. Call it having a remotely rational conversation. Hell, cal it a conversation. If the discussion starts becoming "half a dozen (or more) people vs. Thy", it might be time to start to entertain thoughts that you might be wrong.

Also, I like how you side stepped my points of BEING COHERENT and LETTING SHIT GO i.e. dropping it. I've never once seen you say "You know what? you think what you think, I'll think what I think, let's just drop it and move on." "Not fighting" equates to "not losing a fight", something you seem dead set against.


NO
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trustedfaith



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Let's get back to the subject shall we? While I am completely for allowing people to die on their own terms with dignity (I do live in the state that brought you guys Jack Kevorkian) when they are suffering from terminal illnesses or things that make them a vegetable (e.g. Terry Schiavo)... I am curious about those with mental illness that want to commit suicide.

For instance, what about the mentally ill that suffer mentally (e.g. chronic depression) and physically? What about the ones where every treatment either makes them a zombie or doesn't work? Are they really living? My brother has severe depression -- when he's in that mode there is no sun in his sky. He cannot find anything worth living for. He is absolutely miserable like if I've made one of you go live in North Korea labor camps the rest of your life. I'm not suggesting this for him, because he can find happiness and enjoy life in intervals and when he's on treatment. But what about those who have no treatment that doesn't make them a walking vegetable anyway?

I hate that this can be used as a slippery slope thing. I'm not suggesting one leads to another. But how do we justify what we considering "suffering" and "pain?" Are those people not suffering and in pain with no cure?

I dunno... I'm just curious. I don't think one way or another on it really.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's the difficult one. in the case of a terminally ill patient, the 'no hope of a cure/improvement' bit is pretty clear. in the case of someone who is clearly suffering, but whose life is not in danger....that gets hard. one wants to hope that, even if there is nothing available now to help them, there might be in the future...but even if you knew, for a fact, there would be wonder drug available in 5 years, is it fair to insist that someone go through 5 years of hell to get it? at what point are we asking too much of the person suffering? i think that has to be a really personal call. i guess all i could call for would be not prosecuting suicide attempts as a crime (do states still do that, anyway?). but i can't even begin to decide whether wanting to commit suicide in that situation is right or wrong. understandable, yes - but is it right? do i even have the right to ask if it is right? if i allow a terminally ill patient the right to choice, should i not allow everyone that choice?

i think the societal opposition to suicide is that it is a waste of a life. in the case of a terminally ill patient, there isn't much life left to waste. for a non-terminal person, there could be a lot more, and then you have to ask the value of that remaining life. but can you really determine what that is?
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Sam



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Providing a working, well funded crisis support and mental health response system in the united states supersedes suicide issue because it is at the heart of suicide issues. Our mental health care system is completely broken and people in real need (and their families) have little to turn to in most of the country.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The sorry state of the American health care system is actually a concern in all of the euthanasia debate, I think. I don't think it's a stretch to have severely ill people deciding to end their life to avoid burdening their families with the massive costs... you can't prevent them from doing it as a regular suicide, of course, and in an ideal situation the counselling involved should also address this, but... it's a concern, I guess.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Our health care is shitty enough but our mental health care services, in specific, are even more incredibly dire.

Want the rundown? It's ... terrifying, to someone who lives in europe
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, making improving the mental health system a priority would help in a whole lot of ways. i'm distant enough from it i don't know exactly how bad it is (but i've read stories). i guess i'm thinking of people who wouldn't be helped much even in a functional system - e.g., those for whom none of the medications work.

but yeah, if you want to start writing legislation - forget expanding right-to-die choices, work on making it easier to live.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
Snorri wrote:
Anyway, whatever I just said aside, mental illness can't really qualify for euthanasia since there is way to tell if the request is wellreasoned and willing.

How can we say someone in chronic pain is in their right mind/can make reasonable decisions? Not to be morbid but isn't torture based on the idea that pain breaks you down so you go against your principle not to talk? How does chronic pain differ?

Pretty much I am asking his one can tell if a suicide request is well reasoned whether it is from a terminally ill patient, a mentally ill patient, or a chronic pain sufferer?


Well you need doctors. It's not a simple one-page form you fill out. Ideally you have at least two doctors and a psychiatrist to determine both that the pain/illness is severe enough and the patient is still in their right mind.

It's hard for sure, over here the hoops that need jumping through often take so long that the request gets rejected because the condition of the patient got bad enough that they can't consent any more. (that is, they can't give consent to the request that gives consent when they're no longer able to.)


Quote:
And just a thought - isn't a request for death with dignity in terminal ill patients kinda like a Do Not Resuscitate?


nah, the patient wants it to end before they actually die because the suffering can really drag out. and the last bit is fucking brutal to both the patient and their family.

for example, a brain-tumour can destroy your mental awareness before it actually kills you proper.
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Sam the Eagle



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: I hope this thread kills itself (a disscussion on suicid Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
subject text that was too long to fit in designated place: Suicide: is it really selfish to those who have to go on living or is it selfish to want someone to continue living in extreme pain just because you would miss them?

Do most people regret the attempt is they live through it?

The most determining factor as to whether someone is likely to commit suicide is a past suicidal attempt. (no citations needed, I learned that it school, bitch)

What's the line in the sand between suicidal ideation and cause for concern? When a plan is developed?


There is really something that bothers me with your premises. If the pain, debilitation is that much but you still think about selfishness, then you're still talking to someone who isn't that deep into pain/debilitation that it cause a mental breakdown, as Las pointed out.

My father passed away due to ASL, he was someone who was up to the moment the disease prevented him extremly energic and physical. Yet, when we talked he never ever mentionned suicide, at least to us. That was his choice and we respected it, however painful it was. Others, likely yourself or someone close, are facing that same issue; you'll have but yourself and the person concerned to sort it out. I don't think there are any lines in the sand/concrete rules, it's as personnal as it can be.

As this comix points out, people who think about suicide suffers from a different kind of issues, and would be happier than anyone else to trade selfishness against sadness. To me, these issues are different; the chronical pain/debilitation one and the suicide vs selfishness one and I for one don't think it's healthy to mix the two.
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