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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9552

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Even if you have no interest in alternate currencies, bitcoin is at the forefront of modern cryptography and information security.


It's not at the forefront of information security, it's on the absolute back end of transactional and financial security. The entire history of Bitcoin thus far has been described as a perfect demonstration of the entire history of economics in fast-forward, where a group of idealists who feel that they can be part of a productive revolution in currency by signing up with a currency that exists outside of regulation and oversight, fall prey to scams and schemes that represent the inevitable incentivized product of such an environment, then begin attempting to structure crude re-establishments of the exact same regulation and oversight to try to control bitcoin's massive holdings insecurity and volatility.

Like seriously, they're bucking the established regulatory system and then as a consequence becoming a case study in why we developed and more or less kept with those regulations in the first place. Why we have that very same regulatory nature that the bitcoiners are now struggling to re-establish for a currency with so much daily variation as to be more like a commodity gamble*. But people are still really enamored with the idea because, I don't know, Free Markets™

Quote:
And as the world becomes more digital, the security lessons learnt from bitcoin might come in handy some time.


Do you want your finances to be part of that lesson?





* and not a good one, either. want money in markets? buy low fee unmanaged index funds and sit on them, don't get stuck caught up in a celebrity commodity or impulsively looking at mtgox rates on a weekly or daily basis
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10559
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam: correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't knowing this kinda shit, in a nutshell, your job now?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10794
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When making my last post I looked up bitcoin exchange rates and dollar exchange rates (with GBP, CDN, etc) and thought, "the price changes a lot, this seems more like a stock than a currency." It turns out the word I was looking for was commodity. Thanks, Sam.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9552

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Sam: correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't knowing this kinda shit, in a nutshell, your job now?


No, I'm way more on the service side of things. But it has to come with a fairly intimate knowledge of market tools and necessities. I'm useless if I don't know the reasons why a broker, fa, or imm needs to do stuff.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9552

PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
When making my last post I looked up bitcoin exchange rates and dollar exchange rates (with GBP, CDN, etc) and thought, "the price changes a lot, this seems more like a stock than a currency." It turns out the word I was looking for was commodity. Thanks, Sam.

It already had its first bubble and crash too :>
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Kenshiro



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
What issues? Rolling Eyes


Note that your source on the thing's weaknesses is the Bitcoin wiki itself.

Hooray for upfront honesty and transparency about the nature and potential strengths and weaknesses of a product to those thinking to invest in it!
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3316

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenshiro wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
What issues? Rolling Eyes


Note that your source on the thing's weaknesses is the Bitcoin wiki itself.

Hooray for upfront honesty and transparency about the nature and potential strengths and weaknesses of a product to those thinking to invest in it!


Up front honesty and transparency about the fact that it's just this side of a ponzi scheme?

that doesn't make it a smart place to put your money.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10794
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenshiro wrote:
Hooray for upfront honesty and transparency about the nature and potential strengths and weaknesses of a product to those thinking to invest in it!

Do you fully appreciate the irony of saying that volatility in the US political system that has depressed the markets has encouraged you to invest in bitcoin, which is itself a volatile and insecure place to keep your money? It's like saying you're fed up with the crime in your town so you're moving to Detroit or Baltimore. If you're worried about volatility in the market one assumes you'd put it somewhere safe*, not an experimental commodity with a checkered history.



* I'm not a finance guy, I'm just assuming this is why people put money in tangibles like gold when the economy goes south.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6077
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kenshiro wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
What issues? Rolling Eyes


Note that your source on the thing's weaknesses is the Bitcoin wiki itself.

Hooray for upfront honesty and transparency about the nature and potential strengths and weaknesses of a product to those thinking to invest in it!


note as well that this same source, which you are lauding for "upfront honesty and transparency about the nature and potential strengths and weaknesses of a product," is pretty much entirely dedicated to dismissing "potential weaknesses"
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Michael



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10697

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I'm not a finance guy


Russel Nye, Finance Guy!
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Kenshiro



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Kenshiro wrote:
Hooray for upfront honesty and transparency about the nature and potential strengths and weaknesses of a product to those thinking to invest in it!

Do you fully appreciate the irony of saying that volatility in the US political system that has depressed the markets has encouraged you to invest in bitcoin, which is itself a volatile and insecure place to keep your money? It's like saying you're fed up with the crime in your town so you're moving to Detroit or Baltimore. If you're worried about volatility in the market one assumes you'd put it somewhere safe*, not an experimental commodity with a checkered history.



* I'm not a finance guy, I'm just assuming this is why people put money in tangibles like gold when the economy goes south.


Oh yeah, I noticed that. But it's not like I'm pouring my entire life savings into it either. It's a calculated risk, just like any investment - you've got to weigh costs against potential gains, so if I put a few spare dollars into it here and there I'm hardly put out by a lot but it still helps me sleep easier at night.

ShadowCell wrote:
note as well that this same source, which you are lauding for "upfront honesty and transparency about the nature and potential strengths and weaknesses of a product," is pretty much entirely dedicated to dismissing "potential weaknesses"


Tell that to Darqcyde.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9552

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a calculated risk, it's pretty poor because it is a confluence of two factors:

1. How unenviably volatile the "currency" is, combined with
2. THE BITCOIN COMMUNITY IS A HIVE OF SCAMS, HACKING THEFT, FOOLISHNESS AND DECEIT

Like literally you can divide the bitcoin culture into two groups. One of the groups is a bunch of canny scammers who recognize that bitcoin enthusiasts, for virtue of their idealistic hopes in unregulated decentralized currency and free market concepts, as well as rash overestimation of themselves in terms of investment skill, make them the absolute perfect marks
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3572
Location: Relative

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 7:18 pm    Post subject: Did you get burned by the bubble or something? Reply with quote

As long as there is a group of people who value bitcoin's convenience as a currency it will remain a valid currency.
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
Posts: 3772

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
As a calculated risk, it's pretty poor because it is a confluence of two factors:

1. How unenviably volatile the "currency" is, combined with
2. THE BITCOIN COMMUNITY IS A HIVE OF SCAMS, HACKING THEFT, FOOLISHNESS AND DECEIT

Like literally you can divide the bitcoin culture into two groups. One of the groups is a bunch of canny scammers who recognize that bitcoin enthusiasts, for virtue of their idealistic hopes in unregulated decentralized currency and free market concepts, as well as rash overestimation of themselves in terms of investment skill, make them the absolute perfect marks


The bitcoin community is basically EVE Online, without the spaceships.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10794
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2013 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael wrote:
Dogen wrote:
I'm not a finance guy


Russel Nye, Finance Guy!

On today's show we're going to do an experiment on bitcoin! Now, if this egg represents your life savings, and this brick represents the inevitability of you getting hacked, what happens when we put the egg in this little sled and ram it into the brick? Form a hypothesis and tell your mom or dad!
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