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18 Nov 2012 - Conch Shell
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6634

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
Something to keep in mind in discussion about the "friendzone" is that this word might have different meanings to different people. I know that it was fairly neutral to me for a long time, just a discription for the situation were one party is romantically interested, but the other isn't, so the two persons are just friends. The douchy subtext of entitlement isn't known or intended by a fair number of people who use the word.


Entitlement isn't really something people go out of their way to claim about themselves like... ever, really.

Of course people who cry "I've been friendzoned!" will not assume they are acting in an entitled way.

That's why it needs to be pointed out. Saying "Hey, when you cry buckets about this issue after you've behaved in this way you are actually acting on ingrained entitlement that is, in fact, a problem. You might want to reflect on your expectations and, perhaps, adjust your future behavior."
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Raal



Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its obvious, that Guest can't think outside of his tiny privileged bubble and assumes his place, perspective and situation is like everywhere else.
This Phaedra reminds me (in parts) of my girlfriend. I moved to a new place recently and well, lets say, its not the best place to be outside at night.

That nagging feeling you get when you come home late, because you know, people are robbed pretty often here must be nothing compared to what a woman must feel, because the fear of being raped must be a thousand times worse than the fear of losing your valuables. Just a month ago or so, a woman was denied at court at our place, because she didn't scratch his rapist. The only thing she got was a piece of advice by her lawyer "next time you are raped, scratch him"

I actually fear for my gf everytime she wants to come over, because she has to take a super creepy regional train where is she is harassed at least one time per trip, everytime. There is all kinds of creepy stuff like, man-sitting in front of her and slowly closing the legs so their legs have to touch eventually; to casually lay an arm over her back of the bank; being asked about her boobs; being asked how they must feel if you touch them; being shamed for showing too much skin in an aggressive tone; or first creepy mumbling and when she wants to change seats being followed by that person; and the latest highlite: FAPPING IN FRONT OF HER and another woman. JUST WAT IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE.
And these are the conditions in broad daylight. I'm 100% sure, there are women being raped in there from time to time.

So YES. It is TOTALLY REASONABLE, if you are (as a woman) walking alone, to consider every encounter a possible rapist.
And if you believe, that women are being unreasonable if they think that, its only because you are a priviledged, self-righteous bad man.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Man, sure enough, poke em enough and the creepy entitled underside sure shows through.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10954
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Oh you shouldn't cut people off just because of unrequited emotion. But you are totally free to go a different way because they do not want the same thing.

Sure, but I would say that this is generally true of any relationship, romantic, platonic, or professional. With the exception of contractual obligations you're pretty much always free to go your own way if you and another person want different things. The argument against isn't one of right but method and motivation. If you're friendly only because you want to hook up, but are clear about your interest and intentions, then you've got no problem with me. You go out on a date or two, someone feels no spark, you go your separate ways.

If you develop a platonic relationship with the intention of developing it into something more I think that has more potential to be weird, and you're more likely to hurt the other person by severing ties when you finally get around to making a move or realize they're not into you. That's morally questionable to me because it causes unnecessary suffering. Not tantamount to fraud or whatever, but still wrong, because (to me) it feels like a lie. Especially if you carry on a farce for a long time and then peace out when it's clear you're not getting any. The longer the farce is carried, the more wrong it feels.

Quote:
Like, there seems to be this idea a lot of people have that it's wrong to only be interested romantically in a person. But it totally is. A relationship isn't a friendship with sex, it's a totally different thing. If you're looking for a romantic relationship you do not have to take a friendship as some sort of second best, you don't have to feel like a dick for rejecting that and parting your ways. (unless you act like a dick in it, then of course you should feel like a dick.)

I'm not sure about relationships. I have some friends with whom my relationship is very much like a romantic relationship, minus the sex. I would say that relationships are multiaxial, and the character of each is different. But that's neither here nor there, because I totally accept that it's okay to be interested in someone and let them go if it doesn't work, as long as the method of pursuing them is honest. The line of what feels honest versus dishonest is, I think, what we're really talking about.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystchevious wrote:
Understand that we have a constitutional right to say more or less whatever comes to our head. Just the way it works. Now if you look at what I've said I've never told monkey to shut up. I've pointed out where I think she's unjustly told other people to shut up, but I've never dissuaded her from speaking her mind. Beyond me not having the right to force her to censure her for what she's said It's the internet so in the end we're all losers in this argument.

...

So how does any of this tie into the original point of the argument? Simple. If you've been placed in the friendzone by a a young woman or man and you are unhappy about it you have a right, legal and otherwise, to vocalize it. You do not have the right to emotional manipulation, you do not have a right to physical violence, you do not have the right to slander them. As I've said before those acts are not tie ins to being in the friend zone those are tie ins to criminal activity and general asshattery.

Hmm. So my main problem with this line of reasoning is that, I thought, we were talking about morality, not legality. They're not the same thing, and they're dangerous to conflate. Not everything that's legal is moral (see: cheating on your spouse), and not everything that is moral is legal (see: Gandhi, the civil rights movement, etc). So in this instance I don't think talking about your Constitutional right to complain is relevant. The morality of people who complain about the friend zone is relevant, and I detailed my thoughts about that to Snorri. Feel free to respond to them if you like.
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Mystchevious



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
I think it's pretty creepy how you think you should be allowed to make people ill at ease all you want and suffer no social consequences. It's as though you think you shouldn't be held responsible for your own actions.

(Edited this to clarify a bit.)


For crying out loud I get it. You were hurt by a number of your "friends" who you felt dumped you because they wanted something more than you were willing to give. You have every right to feel hurt. But, look back through this thread. The answer you need has already been posted. Pick up a book on nonverbal communication. Even if someone doesn't say that they are romantically interested in you there are ways to tell. They may have been screaming it, but you not knowing what to look for didn't pick up on it. I've been on dates with people who didn't realize that it was a date EVEN when I used the word date.

As far as people feeling ill at ease I'm a goram agoraphobic. Anyone being too close to me makes me feel ill at ease. They are NOT responsible for making me feel more comfortable and the fact that my very presence makes people feel uncomfortable is not my problem.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystchevious wrote:
Samsally wrote:
I think it's pretty creepy how you think you should be allowed to make people ill at ease all you want and suffer no social consequences. It's as though you think you shouldn't be held responsible for your own actions.

(Edited this to clarify a bit.)


For crying out loud I get it. You were hurt by a number of your "friends" who you felt dumped you because they wanted something more than you were willing to give. You have every right to feel hurt. But, look back through this thread. The answer you need has already been posted. Pick up a book on nonverbal communication. Even if someone doesn't say that they are romantically interested in you there are ways to tell. They may have been screaming it, but you not knowing what to look for didn't pick up on it. I've been on dates with people who didn't realize that it was a date EVEN when I used the word date.

As far as people feeling ill at ease I'm a goram agoraphobic. Anyone being too close to me makes me feel ill at ease. They are NOT responsible for making me feel more comfortable and the fact that my very presence makes people feel uncomfortable is not my problem.


No...you really really don't get it. It's sad how little you get it. The burden of "sensing" that people are romantically interested is not on the object of interest. Christ that's the stupidest thing I've heard all night.
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Mystchevious



Joined: 06 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@ShadowCell

It's very difficult for me to continue this discussion with you without flying off the handle. Needless to say I have no intention of trying. You have misconstrued many of my comments to the point of twisting them into things I at no point said too many times. I mentioned earlier that I felt you were antagonistic for the sake of it and your latest comment confirms to me that I was correct. Understandably you'll follow this with a post about how I'm this horrible thing or that and feel free to but I will not be responding.

And by the way if you feel that my "ramblings" are incoherent try rereading them till you actually understand the entirety of the post. I've had to do you that favor a number of times.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

How can it possibly be my responsibility to know things people don't tell me? How is that even close to realistic by anybody's standards? I'm not talking about missing obvious social clues. I'm actually fully capable of normal social interaction.

You're literally telling me its my own fault that people have become my "friends" under false pretense and then disappeared in a huff when I didn't magically realize they wanted something else.

Sorry, but no.

I guess I just expect more out of men than you do. Honesty, for one.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mystchevious wrote:
@ShadowCell

It's very difficult for me to continue this discussion with you without flying off the handle. Needless to say I have no intention of trying. You have misconstrued many of my comments to the point of twisting them into things I at no point said too many times. I mentioned earlier that I felt you were antagonistic for the sake of it and your latest comment confirms to me that I was correct. Understandably you'll follow this with a post about how I'm this horrible thing or that and feel free to but I will not be responding.

And by the way if you feel that my "ramblings" are incoherent try rereading them till you actually understand the entirety of the post. I've had to do you that favor a number of times.


in other words, you can't actually find a flaw in my argument, but you aren't a big enough man to admit it, so you're just going to project all your failings onto me.

okey dokey then! don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy schlamoley...I step out for a day and this whole place EXPLODES. O_O We need some sibling rivalry set to Spanish music to distract us. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrU_C7toDJk

Last edited by Gibson22 on Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:23 am; edited 1 time in total
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10660
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
hey guys, just so we're clear, 'crossing the street' is not the new 'holding the door open', you total fucking cartoons.

A few weeks ago I was walking to Tessa's cafe to walk her home when she finished at like 11pm at night. I had our puppy on a leash, and was rambling along chatting to myself when I suddenly turned a corner and a girl was standing there. She had a moment of total freak out, until she took a breath, saw I wasn't threatening, and I had an adorable puppy.

She said I had really scared her, and I was so fucking pissed off -- what the fuck is this bitches problem? Don't I have a right to walk down the street like her, the fucking paranoid slut, like I'd even want to fucking rape her.

oops, sorry, that should actually read "She said I had really scared her, and I was absolutely mortified that I had lurched out of the dark at her, because I am a human being who feels empathy, and I frequently walk with my girlfriend and see how often douchebags yell horseshit out their cars at her and we read the same articles about insane assaults on women and the idea that a man could come from nowhere and attack her scares the shit out of her and me too so I do everything in my power to help her set those fears aside, and any time I find myself accidentally freaking a woman out at night I use my human being skill of EMPATHY and say fuck, I am probably freaking that poor girl out, I'm going to cross the street/walk slower/go a different way.

Like fuck, dude, how fucking invonveniant for you is it to cross the fucking road, you arse? It's not admitting that you are a rapist, it's admitting that regardless of your physical size or intent, you can be perceived as a threat and for a wee bit of inconvenience you can help a woman feel fucking safer. Why is that such a big fucking problem, you fuckwit?

your 'delusions of a paranoid woman' aren't delusions or paranoid -- women are raped, and they are raped too often, and they are raped on streets that should be safe for them and are safe for men, so fuck you, you fucking haughty ponce.


Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
maybe rather than indulging yourself with a femspiracy to make you feel like a rapist and make you go the long way home, you can think about what you, an individual, can do to help other individuals in your community feel safer.


First: this raises a lot of good points. And as far as male-female interactions go, I have no issue.

Now let's step away form this specific argument.

What if it's a different, yet similar scenario? What if something about your character is generally threatening to people? Like what if you're 6'6", 350 lbs. (198 cm, 159 kilos)? What if you have A LOT of tattoos (like +50% of your body)? What if you're just plain outright scary looking? At what point are you taking other people's feelings into consideration too much over your own? At what point do you draw a line?
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What if it's a different, yet similar scenario? What if something about your character is generally threatening to people? Like what if you're 6'6", 350 lbs. (198 cm, 159 kilos)? What if you have A LOT of tattoos (like +50% of your body)? What if you're just plain outright scary looking? At what point are you taking other people's feelings into consideration too much over your own? At what point do you draw a line?


Unless people are taking advantage of you or you are exasperating yourself for the sake of others' convenience, I don't think it's ever a bad thing to take in consideration of other people. Being considerate is definitely a trait that is developed, as well as mastering a temper.

I think that your capacity for being considerate grows as you practice it.

I have it happen quite a bit where there is traffic and I sure as heck don't want to run through it to make someone feel better. So, when it is overly inconvenient for me to do, I don't do it. I try to accommodate though. I usually pretend I don't see the girl unless she says "hi" first.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:


I think that your capacity for being considerate grows as you practice it.



I am evidence that this is not so.
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Gibson22



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:


I think that your capacity for being considerate grows as you practice it.



I am evidence that this is not so.


Damn scientific method... :/
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