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18 Nov 2012 - Conch Shell
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
Quote:
What if it's a different, yet similar scenario? What if something about your character is generally threatening to people? Like what if you're 6'6", 350 lbs. (198 cm, 159 kilos)? What if you have A LOT of tattoos (like +50% of your body)? What if you're just plain outright scary looking? At what point are you taking other people's feelings into consideration too much over your own? At what point do you draw a line?


Unless people are taking advantage of you or you are exasperating yourself for the sake of others' convenience, I don't think it's ever a bad thing to take in consideration of other people. Being considerate is definitely a trait that is developed, as well as mastering a temper.

I think that your capacity for being considerate grows as you practice it.

I have it happen quite a bit where there is traffic and I sure as heck don't want to run through it to make someone feel better. So, when it is overly inconvenient for me to do, I don't do it. I try to accommodate though. I usually pretend I don't see the girl unless she says "hi" first.

Good job on not answering the questions I was asking. I mean, I get what you're trying to say, and whether or not I agree with it is moot, because it's not really answering what I'm asking, unless 'never' is your answer.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I could give you a quantifiable answer on that, I would. But nothing about human interaction is quantifiable. Some people will take you for all your worth if you let them.

I guess things I would ask myself is this: Do these actions compromise me beyond what I am able? Do I walk away from this exchanged feeling angry or slighted? Do I feel as if I received no gratitude or appreciation in some way for this gesture? Am I doing more harm than good? If you answer yes to these things then you need to ask yourself if you are just reacting out of anger (which will impair your judgement and how you view past events), examine and determine objectively if you are being taken advantage of, and then plan accordingly.

So, yes, it's another Switzerland answer, isn't it? You draw the line depending on the circumstances because some people appreciate your gestures while others don't. You do it in a case-by-case basis. It's exhausting at first, but after a while it becomes fun, almost like a game.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But, in some of those cases you just have to realize that you can't please everyone and just learn to live with it. I could be running around the city at night with a "Hello Kitty" outfit on and I would still freak someone out. Sometimes people are just scared and there is nothing you can do about it.

INCREDIBLY RELEVANT VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTN9FnoSVFc
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Bart wrote:
Something to keep in mind in discussion about the "friendzone" is that this word might have different meanings to different people. I know that it was fairly neutral to me for a long time, just a discription for the situation were one party is romantically interested, but the other isn't, so the two persons are just friends. The douchy subtext of entitlement isn't known or intended by a fair number of people who use the word.


Entitlement isn't really something people go out of their way to claim about themselves like... ever, really.

Of course people who cry "I've been friendzoned!" will not assume they are acting in an entitled way.

That's why it needs to be pointed out. Saying "Hey, when you cry buckets about this issue after you've behaved in this way you are actually acting on ingrained entitlement that is, in fact, a problem. You might want to reflect on your expectations and, perhaps, adjust your future behavior."


I'm not talking about people who use "friendzone" in an entitled way and deny that they are. ("She friendzoned me, of course she can choose who she wants, but she's making a mistake, can't she see how good I am for her"). I'm talking to people who use it as as a description for non-reciprocated love for a friend. ("She friendzoned me, of course I'm disappointed, but if she's not into me that's just how it is.")

Now, in both cases something should be said about the use of the word. In the first because of what you said, in the second because the person apparently isn't aware of the connotations of the word. It just seems like most people here immediately assume the first scenario when someone doesn't understand what is wrong when talking about "friendzoning".
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly it still doesn't hurt to point out the terrible connotations that come with it. At the very least you can weed out the dudes that care more about being right on the internet than they care about positive social change. Plus, it might get a genuinely nice guy to reflect and use less harmful teminology in the future because whether they know it or not, that term is now totally loaded.
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TheJabawack



Joined: 05 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Honestly it still doesn't hurt to point out the terrible connotations that come with it. At the very least you can weed out the dudes that care more about being right on the internet than they care about positive social change. Plus, it might get a genuinely nice guy to reflect and use less harmful teminology in the future because whether they know it or not, that term is now totally loaded.


It is a sad thing that a word can become such a problem. I guess it is a bigger problem on the internet since we only have what is printed on the screen to go by.

If a word is "loaded" it is better not to use it unless you want to explain in excruciating detail the meaning that you attribute to it and how you don't intend to use the "loaded" word in an insulting manner etc. etc.

"friendzone" is not such an essential word. After all, just saying "he\she doesn't reciprocate my feelings" is much easier (and shorter) than writing "he\she put me in the friendzone!" and then having to explain how you didn't intend it in a bad way while still probably appearing as a douchebag.

I thought that "friendzone" was just a description. Those discussion always give me food for thought.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:

What if it's a different, yet similar scenario? What if something about your character is generally threatening to people? Like what if you're 6'6", 350 lbs. (198 cm, 159 kilos)? What if you have A LOT of tattoos (like +50% of your body)? What if you're just plain outright scary looking? At what point are you taking other people's feelings into consideration too much over your own? At what point do you draw a line?


uhh... then avoid engaging in behaviour likely freak the shit out of people? Don't walk really close to them at night?

I don't really understand what you're asking. The dishwasher at Tessa's works husband is pretty much exactly who you just described, including chopper read moustache and head tattoos.

But I still am not sure what your question is?

It's about using common sense to make a choice to try not to freak people out.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Honestly it still doesn't hurt to point out the terrible connotations that come with it. At the very least you can weed out the dudes that care more about being right on the internet than they care about positive social change. Plus, it might get a genuinely nice guy to reflect and use less harmful teminology in the future because whether they know it or not, that term is now totally loaded.


You're completely right about this.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is such awful horseshit to say that more women are sexually assaulted and raped by people they know because it doesn't change the fact that women are also sexually assaulted and raped by people they don't know. Whether or not one is more likely than the other, one doesn't cancel out the other.

Recently a woman from the arts community in Melbourne disappeared while walking home. She left a pub in the wee hours of the morning, had a five or so minute walk home but never arrived. Three days later she was found raped and murdered in a ditch. They caught the guy, and he had no idea who she was, he was just out trolling the streets for someone to rape.

THAT is what women have to fucking live with. It doesn't matter that its more likely for a woman to be raped by someone she knows, because there is still a chance that they will walk down a dark street and someone who they don't know will fucking rape them.

That is why I feel sorry when I startle women while out walking at night. That is why I fret for my girlfriend and don't let her work home from work alone -- not out of some weird alpha male pride king must protect the woman thing I feel, or from her 'paranoid delusions', but because within our society men rape women.

If I was walking alone at night and was set upon, there is a chance I could be raped, but most likely I would just get the shit kicked out of me and robbed, maybe murdered.

But rape is such a heinous physical and mental invasion that I will never judge a woman for her alleged 'paranoid delusions' that when we pass each other on a lonely street at night she thinks I am a potential rapist.

Because I am a human being of earth I feel empathy for women who feel as if they are constantly at war. I cannot understand what it feels like, but I can feel empathy for it.

It is such egotistical self-involved douchebaggery to come out and say HOW DARE YOU THINK I AM CAPABLE OF RAPING?
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
It is such awful horseshit to say that more women are sexually assaulted and raped by people they know because it doesn't change the fact that women are also sexually assaulted and raped by people they don't know. Whether or not one is more likely than the other, one doesn't cancel out the other.


Uh-huh.

Quote:
Recently a woman from the arts community in Melbourne disappeared while walking home. She left a pub in the wee hours of the morning, had a five or so minute walk home but never arrived. Three days later she was found raped and murdered in a ditch. They caught the guy, and he had no idea who she was, he was just out trolling the streets for someone to rape.


Interesting.

Quote:
THAT is what women have to fucking live with. It doesn't matter that its more likely for a woman to be raped by someone she knows, because there is still a chance that they will walk down a dark street and someone who they don't know will fucking rape them.


Mmm.

Quote:
That is why I feel sorry when I startle women while out walking at night. That is why I fret for my girlfriend and don't let her work home from work alone -- not out of some weird alpha male pride king must protect the woman thing I feel, or from her 'paranoid delusions', but because within our society men rape women.


Yep.

Quote:
If I was walking alone at night and was set upon, there is a chance I could be raped, but most likely I would just get the shit kicked out of me and robbed, maybe murdered.

But rape is such a heinous physical and mental invasion that I will never judge a woman for her alleged 'paranoid delusions' that when we pass each other on a lonely street at night she thinks I am a potential rapist.

Because I am a human being of earth I feel empathy for women who feel as if they are constantly at war. I cannot understand what it feels like, but I can feel empathy for it.

It is such egotistical self-involved douchebaggery to come out and say HOW DARE YOU THINK I AM CAPABLE OF RAPING?


Here's why: Because I'm not an idiot that takes the words of a lunatic woman at face value. If I look at the statistics and frequency of women getting raped by strangers, and the frequency of getting randomly murdered by strangers, they're about the same. Depending on where you are, it could be up to 20% down to 9%. What does that tell me? It tells me that the incidences of rape and murder involving strangers are comparatively lower (much lower) than incidences involving close friends or family members. (And even so, the incidences of murder by strangers are mostly suffered by men, not women.) In other words, when walking the streets, should I constantly worry about getting murdered and consider every man (murders by strangers mostly by men) that approaches me "SchrŲdinger's Murderer"? You tell me if that doesn't sound delusional and paranoid. However, I'll tell what I think is awful horseshit: to coddle the unfounded fears of a woman, allowing them to remain mainstay, instead of showing contrary statistics that would allay those fears. That is horseshit.

Maybe you could have done that instead of being an "egotistical douchebag" and tutting your girlfriend into this false sense of insecurity. If she feels "constantly at war", then have you pondered that maybe you're the one responsible if she's ignorant about the risk? Or maybe you just didn't bother to look it up. Finally, yes, considering that every man who approaches her and perhaps interested in her romantically a potential rapist is just stupid. YMMV.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy shit.
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Succubus1982



Joined: 07 Oct 2009
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
INCREDIBLY RELEVANT VIDEO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTN9FnoSVFc


That was disgusting. Just because something isn't rational to you doesn't mean it's fake or you have the right to torment a person about it. The people of that show are obscene. Just because it's an irrational thing to be scared of doesn't mean she doesn't have a genuine phobia. Phobias aren't always rational. I mean people are scared of lots of things. I'm personally terrified of bees, and I'm not even talking killer bees. I'm talking regular fat harmless bumblebees. I would probably react exactly as she did if someone chased me around with a hive of them, they're just as harmless therefore they're just as irrational an object to fear. What about all the people with OCDs who have panic attacks in public about things not being in order? I saw an article once written by a paramedic on a day off who encountered a guy having a nervous breakdown because he couldn't remember whether he had locked all his car doors properly and kept opening and relocking them over and over. And everyone passing by instead of helping him to calm down and get over it by offering to check the doors for him were simply pissing themselves laughing at this poor guy and mocking him. Because thats the sort of asshole society we live in where everyone thinks they have the right to judge others without experiencing what they've been through or where they're coming from. Everyone thinks if you differ from the norm you're 'insane' or should be mocked publically for everyones entertainment. As someone who has spent most of her life being picked apart and mocked for having issues that people don't understand I don't approve of this sort of shit at all, nor do I find it remotely funny Mad
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah. I mean, the statistics are true (women are more likely to be raped by someone known to them), but this is such a callous way of using that. I mean, it's one thing to know the risk and another thing entirely to treat people like they're crazy because they believe they're in danger. If a person sincerely believes they're in danger then what do you do? You try not to freak them out. What other option is there that doesn't make you sound like a callous, condescending douchebag in that moment?

Now, if Guest is advocating for greater education for women as a means of freeing them from what some rape counselors consider a curfew that's been unfairly applied to women (you can't go outside/drive/travel alone at night), that's fine. But in the moment where you're face to face with someone - anyone - and you make them scared... For fucks sake, apologize and take a step back, you lumbering antisocial fuck.
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Yeah. I mean, the statistics are true (women are more likely to be raped by someone known to them), but this is such a callous way of using that. I mean, it's one thing to know the risk and another thing entirely to treat people like they're crazy because they believe they're in danger. If a person sincerely believes they're in danger then what do you do? You try not to freak them out. What other option is there that doesn't make you sound like a callous, condescending douchebag in that moment?


Who's the douchebag, the person who coddles the one with an irrational fear essentially infantilising them, or the person that attempts to allay that fear by treating them with some facts to show them their fear is unfounded? If this woman (Phaedra) or Dennis' girlfriend wants to believe they're in constant danger of rape from strangers, they can. But wouldn't it be irresponsible to allow those fears to remain unchecked, even if we know for a fact that they're irrational? Especially for people we care about.

Edit: To reduce rambling nonsense.

Quote:
Now, if Guest is advocating for greater education for women as a means of freeing them from what some rape counselors consider a curfew that's been unfairly applied to women (you can't go outside/drive/travel alone at night), that's fine. But in the moment where you're face to face with someone - anyone - and you make them scared... For fucks sake, apologize and take a step back, you lumbering antisocial fuck.

Where have I said I wouldn't?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
Who's the douchebag, the person who coddles the one with an irrational fear essentially infantilising them, or the person that attempts to allay that fear by treating them with some facts to show them their fear is unfounded? If this woman (Phaedra) or Dennis' girlfriend wants to believe they're in constant danger of rape from strangers, they can. But wouldn't it be irresponsible to allow those fears to remain unchecked, even if we know for a fact that they're irrational? Especially for people we care about. This woman (Phaedra) is paranoid that strange men who approach her/talk to her/etc will potentially rape her, and the delusion that all her dates (also potential rapists) will kidnap and/or murder her. Then we have the fears that do not concern rape or murder, but are equally harmful: the fear that vaccines cause autism, or the fear that removing a foeutus from the womb before its due date condemns its soul to eternal damnation. If you had the facts on hand, and you were a close friend or a relative, you wouldn't say anything to these people? Nothing? Better to let it stew and fester?

The douchebag is the person who acts out of a sense of condescension, who refers to people's fears as delusions, and who expects people to behave rationally because he wants them to (people act irrationally all the time, and believe irrational things at alarming rates... are you this militant about all of them?). The douchebag is the person who sees a woman saying, "I live in fear," and their first reaction is to belittle her as paranoid.

You're not arguing facts. You're just using them as a blind you can hind behind while you mock women (if you've tried this hard to mock a man for a similarly irrational belief, I've missed it).

Quote:
Quote:
But in the moment where you're face to face with someone - anyone - and you make them scared... For fucks sake, apologize and take a step back, you lumbering antisocial fuck.

Where have I said I wouldn't?

I guess I did, since you've never really shown much consideration for how women feel, but seem focused on the irrationality of their fear and how "delusional" they might be. I'd have an easier time ascribing compassion to you if you ever seemed to care about their emotional state rather than focusing on what's wrong with it. Totally subjective, naturally. I'm sure you're a big cuddly teddy bear in person, who nurtures them emotionally as you mock their irrational behavior.
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