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18 Nov 2012 - Conch Shell
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because, Sam, they're not refuting the argument I'm making!

You see this?

Quote:
i am legitimately flabbergasted at how you can take the position "women are irrational to fear being raped by men they don't know because statistically they're so much more likely to be raped by men they do know"


That's not what I'm arguing!

What I'm arguing (and have argued and really, it's so tiresome to have to repeat it over, and over, and over) is that the frequent risk Starling has conjured up for herself does not square with reality. Especially since she's talking about strangers. She's created a narrative where some of it is based on facts (1 in 6 women in the US get sexually assaulted) some of it is based on hyperbole, but then she goes off the deep end speaking complete and utter nonsense and then she says this is true. It's not. But I've never said that strangers never rape women, not ever during this entire discussion (or "discussion") but for some reason my position keeps getting misrepresented to something like that and it's mildly annoying, but more importantly it's the reason I think you are want of comprehension and the ability to read. (Which we both know is not true, which makes me suspect you're doing it on purpose.) This in a language that's native to your fucking country.

This has happened before. I've been falsely accused of defending child porn, being harsh against women and feminists in general, sexist because I used someone's real name and all because the first thing I did discussing feminism was bring up Andrea Dworkin and Rebecca Watson. Is it so much to ask that you actually read what the hell I'm saying, and not just repeating, "Instead of saying people can't read, how about saying what you actually think?" Because I have! You just have to go back in the thread and read it. It is that simple.

However, about Starling: I see the hysteric ramblings of a distraught woman who's so paranoid that she writes the name and contact information of her every date, in case they kidnap, murder and dump her in a ditch. You see a concerned, reasonable woman. Clearly we're not working on the same wavelength here. She fervently believes that every strange man she meets is a rapist, so what is so terrible to try and mitigate that concern with some facts? And if she already knows about it and still constantly (again, constantly) worries about stranger rape, then she's being irrational, and delusional. That is even if sometimes (which is to say not all the fucking time) strangers rape women, and sometimes strangers murder women. I haven't said she doesn't have the right to be afraid, I haven't said there's no risk (ever) and I haven't said it never happens. Yet these are all positions that's been falsely attributed to me, so do you see why I'm a little frustrated? (Prediction: you don't, and you won't.)
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
I find the risk of being raped by a stranger accceptably small. Despite the fact that my personal risk of being raped by a stranger is even smaller than the risk a woman takes. Therefore the precautions many women take to avoid being raped come across as irrational and delusional to me.

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Guest



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Guest wrote:
I find the risk of being raped by a stranger accceptably small. Despite the fact that my personal risk of being raped by a stranger is even smaller than the risk a woman takes. Therefore the precautions many women take to avoid being raped come across as irrational and delusional to me.


Actually the risk of me being murdered by a stranger (men gets murdered more often than women by strangers) is equal the amount of women being raped by strange men. (They're about in the same ballpark.)

But you still don't get it. I'm not arguing the risk. I'm arguing the constant risk. There's a difference. I don't care about what precautions they may take because that's not what I'm arguing. Fucking. Hell. I repeat:

Quote:
"... in a language that's native to your fucking country."

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Last edited by Guest on Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So you're parsing their entire life down to "Well you only have risk during period X so these precautions you take during those very situations where you could be raped" comes across as paranoid and delusional to me.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really the whole thing boils down to disgust that you have the arrogance to assume you know what the acceptable risk of rape is for a woman and therefore what precautions it's rational and sane for them to take.
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Willem



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
Quote:
i am legitimately flabbergasted at how you can take the position "women are irrational to fear being raped by men they don't know because statistically they're so much more likely to be raped by men they do know"


That's not what I'm arguing!

It is, actually. And ironically, you think it's not because of the same reason you think people don't understand you. This is what you think the above sentence means:

Quote:
But I've never said that strangers never rape women, not ever during this entire discussion

That's not what's being said, though. Here's your argument again:

Quote:
the frequent risk Starling has conjured up for herself does not square with reality.

some of it is based on hyperbole

she goes off the deep end speaking complete and utter nonsense

"women are irrational to fear being raped by men they don't know"

Note that that quote doesn't say you think women are never raped by strangers. That's not the core of the argument. The core of the argument is that you think women are irrational to fear rape by strangers and that you think this woman is irrational in reacting so strongly to this perceived threat.

So maybe you don't read my posts anymore, but did you at least watch this video? Did you read the stories we posted here? I can go up to any of my female friends and they'll have a story to share as well. As far as I know, none of them were raped - thank god - but all of them have been harassed, groped, propositioned and threatened on a routine basis, by strangers. And these experiences aren't up for discussion - they don't just limit themselves to things you might consider 'acceptable'. Every girl I - and you - know will be able to tell you stories about men exposing themselves to them, following them, grabbing them, etc. That video I posted isn't selectively edited or anything, that's a routine day on the street for many women.

Imagine living in a world like that. I can go out on the street at any time, walk through the darkest alley and the densest forest without nary a thought. I don't have to worry about rape and I only have to worry about getting mugged or stabbed in the dangerous areas of town - but most areas are generally safe for me. Now imagine that there are no safe spaces. Imagine you live in a world where you're constantly confronted with harassment, there are no safe spaces in public and it's really not that much of a leap to think those men who were just now groping you or exposing themselves to you, those men who are following you into the woods, that those men might rape you. In fact, it's the only logical thing to think - it's pure ratio. If a woman isn't concerned about that risk, then she's being irrational.

So when you see a woman that's paranoid and delusional because she's afraid of that risk and because she takes precautions - just in case -, I see a horrifying symptom of a system that forces women to be afraid. A society which forces them to consider that every man they meet might be a rapist. That's something worth considering, I think.
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Guest



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
So you're parsing their entire life down to "Well you only have risk during period X so these precautions you take during those very situations where you could be raped" comes across as paranoid and delusional to me.


No, I'm not saying "you only have risk during X period." I haven't asserted when they have risk (because no one in their right mind would say that), and I'm not asserting they can't ever be mindful. If they want to take precautions for rape, that's fine. I haven't, nor will I, begrudge them that. You still - don't - get it. What I am saying is that constantly worrying about rape from strange men, even though statistics show it doesn't happen all that often, is unfounded, especially when you make a blog post recounting to gullible women who read it and say, essentially, this is the reality women have to live with. It isn't. It's ridiculous that I'm gonna have to repeat over, and over, and over again, that for a woman to broadly state that this is what women face every day (just for the record, we're talking Western women, not women in the Middle East) and constantly have to worry about being raped by strangers is condescending to women who doesn't have that mindset and who certainly probably would be offended by the notion that women are defenseless, overly scared creatures, that is just waiting for strange men to rape them. It's ludicruous, it's irrational and yes, it's delusional.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're presuming to make a judgement call about acceptable risk of rape....right there...right in that post.

Here let me help you see what you are saying but first let me point out to you what the statistics are.

Yes wikipedia is lazy but i have to go to work. wrote:
Rape prevalence among women in the U.S. (the percentage of women who experienced rape at least once in their lifetime so far) is in the range of 15%20%, with different studies agreeing with each other. (National Violence against Women survey, 1995, found 17.6% prevalence rate;[6] a 2007 national study for the Department of Justice on rape found 18% prevalence rate.[7])



Is a 15 to 20% chance of rape over your lifetime small enough that you should not have to take precautions Guest?
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Succubus1982



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having just today been a victim of exactly the type of stalking and sexual harassment that Willem demonstrated in that video of the frenchwoman, and feeling very raw and sensitive about the whole ordeal (I hid in my class for 3 hours after it ended too scared to walk home until the lecturer asked me what was wrong and offered to drive me there) I can say that honestly I don't give a flying fuck what the statistics stay. There are a fuckload of creepers and perverts on the street and it is always ALWAYS better to be cautious than to end up raped or dead. You know the saying? Better safe than sorry? Well I am planning on being a whole fuckload more wary when I leave the house from now on
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Mizike



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
I don't have a problem with women. Bitches just be trippin'.

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Samsally



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Willem wrote:
I can go up to any of my female friends and they'll have a story to share as well. As far as I know, none of them were raped - thank god - but all of them have been harassed, groped, propositioned and threatened on a routine basis, by strangers. And these experiences aren't up for discussion - they don't just limit themselves to things you might consider 'acceptable'. Every girl I - and you - know will be able to tell you stories about men exposing themselves to them, following them, grabbing them, etc. That video I posted isn't selectively edited or anything, that's a routine day on the street for many women.


I really fucking wish I could say the same as what's bolded. At least three people very important to me were not so lucky. I suspect another but it hasn't come up yet.

Like. That's a lot of people. I'm not just talking of all my casual acquaintances, either. I'm talking out of my close friends and family. And that's only the ones that were actually comfortable telling me about it.
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Bart



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another thing to take into consideration, it is not because men have about the same chance of being killed by a stranger as a women has of being raped by them, that the two are comparable. There are very few instances were a confrontation with a stranger begins with the intent to murder. Usually, these kinds of murders have escalated from another situation, a robbery, an argument in a bar, ... Point is, usually you have enough warning and you'll be to remove yourself from such a situation. It might mean giving up your watch and wallet, or swallowing your pride, but you can get out of that situation. This is obviously not the case with rape.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
This has happened before. I've been falsely accused of defending child porn, being harsh against women and feminists in general, sexist because I used someone's real name and all because the first thing I did discussing feminism was bring up Andrea Dworkin and Rebecca Watson.


Man I read every page of every one of the arguments you are referencing. That this is how you conceptualize them after the fact while according no validity to the points you got challenged actually, enhance that to "pinned to the fucking wall with" is you demonstrating that you don't learn. That you walk away from these giant conflagrations without understanding why you are wrong, or what your position was critically lacking, or what you were even doing.

Quote:
Is it so much to ask that you actually read what the hell I'm saying, and not just repeating, "Instead of saying people can't read, how about saying what you actually think?"


In the most prominent example of this you were asked a pretty straightforward question about your position and refused to provide any meaningful clarification, and people were eventually making fun of your adamant refusal to do so. For pages, and pages, and pages. When you have a habit of repeatedly saying to people that they obviously can't read then wheels asks you QUITE FAIRLY for a pretty easy and straightforward clarification of your position, and then you whinge and never provide, guess what.

And, per usual, you learned nothing from it. You didn't think you were doing anything wrong at all. You are blind to your own deficiencies in argument. You still think this is an unfair conceptualization of you.

you won't learn, huh. yeaaaah
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:

mouse: Honestly? I don't know. Frankly I haven't been saying that there is zero risk for strange men raping women, just that whatever risk Starling concocted in her mind does not square with facts. If she wants to believe it, fine; that's her right. It's also my right to mock it because it's ridiculous. Just like vaxxers, just like Catholic priests believing in the sanctity of an unborn child.


wow. you really don't get risk assessment, do you?

as long as there is a non-zero risk of being raped, women are going to worry about it. because, however low the risk is, it could happen. and if it happens to you, the costs are much, much higher than the costs of maintaining a heightened awareness of the potential risk a strange man might represent. in fact, if you _fail_ to maintain that heightened awareness, and do things like walk down dark alleyways, or shrug off a man following you into the woods, or any of those other things you are laughing at, you are actually _increasing_ your risk - because you are walking into potentially dangerous situations.

the fact that you utterly fail to understand this is really, really stunning. have you no self-preservation instinct at all?
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok, i missed this page before i posted, but this:
Guest wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
So you're parsing their entire life down to "Well you only have risk during period X so these precautions you take during those very situations where you could be raped" comes across as paranoid and delusional to me.


No, I'm not saying "you only have risk during X period." I haven't asserted when they have risk (because no one in their right mind would say that), and I'm not asserting they can't ever be mindful. If they want to take precautions for rape, that's fine. I haven't, nor will I, begrudge them that. You still - don't - get it. What I am saying is that constantly worrying about rape from strange men, even though statistics show it doesn't happen all that often, is unfounded


this is where the disconnect happens. you admit that you cannot predict when the risk is greatest, you said the same thing in response to my earlier post. to quote: "Honestly? I don't know". so if you, a man, can give me no guidelines as to when i should worry about another man, and when i can be 100% sure of him - how can you say it is irrational to worry about it all the time? if there is no time in which you are certain you are safe - how can you do otherwise than to worry about it all the time?

look, if you knew there was a 1 in 1000 chance that the next strange man you encounter will punch you in the face hard enough to break your nose - on how many of the occasions in which you met a strange man would you be on alert? would knowing that there is a 1 in 100 change that a friend or family member (or a 1 in 1 chance, for a sinfest member) would do the same thing - would that really make you less worried about the strange man punching you? how about if you knew that acting like you are not worried actually _increases_ the odds that said strange man will punch you?


IF THERE IS NO WAY TO PREDICT WHEN THE DANGER IS GREATEST, THE ONLY RATIONAL WAY TO ACT IS TO FEAR DANGER AT ALL TIMES.
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