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18 Nov 2012 - Conch Shell
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6052
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fascinating! tell us more about this "reality" you live in where women are never raped and therefore if they have any concern that they might be, by, say, some sociopath who dismisses their concerns by saying that they are delusional and crazy for thinking so, they are "lunatics."

i think i've figured it out. Guest is actually Todd Akin.
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe it's not a language barrier.

You just can't read.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually given that you still don't get what "exaggerated for literary effect" means I submit that it's you who cannot read.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

or maybe it's the part where the article straight up says right off the bat that it's talking about men who approach women to make known some romantic interest

the part that you would know was there if you could, you know, read

but i guess that would take away from your busy schedule of listening to doctors tell you about the many ways that a female body can shut down a pregnancy in the case of legitimate rape, huh
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

inb4 guest reveals that, like dragonwriter, he too raped his sister because of his samurai code
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh, has he squealed about strawmen yet? he picked that word up somewhere (probably by slipping roofies into its drink because that's how he rolls and if it was afraid he was going to rape it then clearly it was just insane) and it's what he defaults to whenever he gets backed into a corner.
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
Posts: 2178

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Actually given that you still don't get what "exaggerated for literary effect" means I submit that it's you who cannot read.


Which part is exaggerated, exactly?

And the author would "exaggerate for literary effect" the fear of rape daily, by strangers approaching her, when we know the statistics of rape by strangers are very little compared to people they know? But you're right: it is exaggerated all right. And bombastic. And fearmongering. And paranoid. These are all aspects of the article in question, which you and Shadowcell, and Dennis, too, the social justice warrior that he is, have all taken onboard. I suppose Phaedra finds comfort in that (unless she's taking us all for a spin, I mean I've already recounted the significance of the name Phaedra and it seems rather odd for a woman constantly in fear of rape by strange men to use that particular name but <shrug>) I've discussed this article before in other places, and it's interesting to me that the places where it's usually being taken at face value are where there's a swath of radical feminists. But Shadowcell has clearly constituted to me with his response that he feels fine being a rapist in the eyes of this woman, and in the eyes of other woman as well who feel the same way (like the commenters, for example, in which "Starling" makes the case for the concept of "SchrŲdinger's Rapist" [but then, she could be exaggerating for effect here, too]) and Dennis has constituted that he will bend himself backwards to please a woman (or women) that consider him to be a rapist because it would be inconvenient otherwise.

Shadowcell wrote:
or maybe it's the part where the article straight up says right off the bat that it's talking about men who approach women to make known some romantic interest


You mean in the instances where I pointed this out?

Oh, but let's see how this paranoid woman is, shall we?

"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
When I go on a date, I always leave the manís full name and contact information written next to my computer monitor. This is so the cops can find my body if I go missing.


"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
So when you, a stranger, approach me, I have to ask myself: Will this man rape me?


"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
How do I know that you, the nice guy who wants nothing more than companionship and True Love, are not this rapist?

I donít.


"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
When you approach me in public, you are SchrŲdingerís Rapist. You may or may not be a man who would commit rape. I wonít know for sure unless you start sexually assaulting me. I canít see inside your head, and I donít know your intentions. If you expect me to trust youóto accept you at face value as a nice sort of guyóyou are not only failing to respect my reasonable caution, you are being cavalier about my personal safety.

Fortunately, youíre a good guy. Weíve already established that. Now that youíre aware that thereís a problem, you are going to go out of your way to fix it, and to make the women with whom you interact feel as safe as possible.


And just for the plain bizarre.

"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
Are you wearing a tee-shirt making a rape joke? NOT A GOOD CHOICEónot in general, and definitely not when approaching a strange woman.


"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
On the other hand, if you are both at church accompanied by your mothers, who are lifelong best friends, the woman is as close as it comes to safe. That is to say, still not 100% safe. But the odds are pretty good.


Of a stalker she says:

"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
This man scores higher on the threat level scale than Man with the Cockroach Tattoos. (Who, after all, is guilty of nothing more than terrifying bad taste.)


Mm. Good point.

"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
The fifth and last point: Donít rape. Nor should you commit these similar but less severe offenses: donít assault. Donít grope. Donít constrain. Donít brandish. Donít expose yourself. Donít threaten with physical violence. Donít threaten with sexual violence.


Directly following:

"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
Let me start out by assuring you that I understand you are a good sort of person. You are kind to children and animals. You respect the elderly. You donate to charity. You tell jokes without laughing at your own punchlines. You respect women. You like women.


And of course this:

"Phaedra Starling" wrote:
Now, you want to become acquainted with a woman you see in public. The first thing you need to understand is that women are dealing with a set of challenges and concerns that are strange to you, a man. To begin with, we would rather not be killed or otherwise violently assaulted.


Exaggerated for literary effect. Got it.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6052
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jesus, guest. you know, i'm willing to believe that all this misogynistic rhetoric you spout is just the result of pride or immaturity or trolling or something and you're not really serious that you think this stuff--in fact, i'd rather believe that--but the longer and more consistently you go off like this, the easier it is to think that you are in fact the kind of guy who could rape a woman and genuinely 100% totally not understand that what you did was rape.

you need help, man. you won't accept it from me because you hate me, but seriously. get help.
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Guest



Joined: 15 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
jesus, guest. you know, i'm willing to believe that all this misogynistic rhetoric you spout is just the result of pride or immaturity or trolling or something and you're not really serious that you think this stuff--in fact, i'd rather believe that--but the longer and more consistently you go off like this, the easier it is to think that you are in fact the kind of guy who could rape a woman and genuinely 100% totally not understand that what you did was rape.

you need help, man. you won't accept it from me because you hate me, but seriously. get help.


Misogynistic rhetoric? By criticising the ravings of a loony? I don't remember making any big speeches to advancing the hatred of women in general, or even the hatred of this one woman, but given that I can't read, it's possible that I could have missed it. Interestingly, you said the same thing when I went off on Andrea Dworkin when I called her insane, and a misandrist of the highest order, but then when she says things like, "I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig" there really isn't that much margin for error. (Although I guess Willem would make the case that "man" here is an analogy for the patriarchy. Ah, what people don't do to protect the innocence of their idols.) I know you have a problem with dictionaries and words, but misogynist still means the hatred of women, and I don't "hate" Phaedra Starling - I dislike her, and I dislike her opinions. But if you just want to repeat "misogynist" like a parrot, then go right ahead.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
MerchManDan wrote:
Anyhow, I believe it was Snorri who wisely pointed out that the Friend Zone is something one does to oneself. It exists, but inside the minds of those who have been rejected. This is why there's no point in being just-friends with somebody if you're romantically interested but they aren't; it's nothing but pain. Let them go.

This doesn't strike me as a positive approach, either. Emotionally safer, sure, but awfully simplistic. What about people on whom you have a crush? Or people you work with? Or, god forbid, the wife of a friend? There are going to be people in life you feel strongly about, and avoiding them isn't an answer. It buys into a notion that you're powerless to control your emotions, which I think has the potential to do more harm than good. I think - and this is purely an opinion - that we need to expect more from ourselves and others. If someone wants to be your friend that's good. There are precious few people I give a goddamn about to any significant depth. I'd rather have them as friends than not at all. Figuring out how not to get fucked up about it is just another life lesson.


On the other hand you have no obligation to be friends with everyone. You do not have to be powerless to control your emotions to not consider getting over someone and forming a friendship to be worth it all the time.

Getting over your shit because you already have a non-romantic relationship with that person is fine, but there is no obligation to form a friendship just because the person wants to be your friend. You should form a friendship because you want that friendship, not because they want it.

In that way it's pretty muck like ex-girlfriends/boyfriends. Some you stay friends with and some you don't. To say that staying friends is the superior option is silly. Sometimes it is what you want, sometimes it isn't.

(btw, I don't mean to imply that you should delete the other person from your memory and start ignoring them. Friendship and being friendly with another person are two different things.)
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starkruzr



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 119

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guest wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
clearly you have not understood that literature if you think it's "persecution" and "minority whining," or if asking for things like not being sexually harassed and treated as sex machines into which kindness coins are dropped is "asking for the whole world on a goddamned platter"

the only one doing any persecuting here is you


I'll just leave this here:

http://kateharding.net/2009/10/08/guest-blogger-starling-schrodinger%E2%80%99s-rapist-or-a-guy%E2%80%99s-guide-to-approaching-strange-women-without-being-maced/

The interesting thing about this is that context only slightly decreases any one person's "threat potential." Right? A woman is more likely to be raped by an acquaintance than a stranger.

What this means is that it is a miracle love ever happens at all.

P.S. guys I think we can agree that Dworkin was kind of nuts and should not really be considered part of the rational base for feminism, yes?


Last edited by starkruzr on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri: Sure, like most things in life the black and white option in either direction is not necessarily good. My point was simply arguing against cutting people off because of unrequited emotion, not necessarily saying you must stay friends. Though I didn't say that explicitly, so fair's fair.
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Last edited by Dogen on Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kung Fu Jesus



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read the full article...

While sometimes "Ms. Starling" does come off a bit paranoid to me, I believe that to me, it is due to cultural differences. You see, I live in Brazil, and people here seem to be much more trusting of each other than in the US of A. I don't know about the rape statistics, and I'd be willing to guess that if there are less rapes here, it is not by a significant margin, but it is simply a part of Brazilian culture to be open to chatting with just about anyone at about anytime.

However, most of the text strikes me as quite reasonable... Women DO live under the risk of being raped, and knowing that there are many people who are capable and willing of doing that is, obviously, a major stress factor. So yeah, to me it seems she just wants a little respect, and that men seek to notice if women wish to be left alone - and LEAVE THEM THE FUCK ALONE if they wish so. That seems completely reasonable (and respectful) to me.

I read nothing about "changing sidewalks" or anything similar in "Ms. Starling"'s text. While she did warn men about approaching women in dark alleys, it seems to me it should be simple common sense that any person would feel threatened while being approached by a larger, stronger individual in a dark alley.

As for the "Schrodinger's rapist" analogy, I believe all "Ms. Starling" meant is that she has NO WAY AT ALL to tell if any man is a rapist or not, which is simple caution on her part.

Or, simply: I do not understand what is Guest's problem with the article. While some of the lines, if analyzed individually, come off as paranoid, as a whole, the text is quite reasonable. I would be glad if he would be kind enough to explain to me what exactly is his problem with it.

Please pardon my English if I have comitted any egregious mistakes.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Snorri: Sure, like most things in life the black and white option in either direction is not necessarily good. My point was simply arguing against cutting people off because of unrequited emotion, not necessarily saying you must stay friends. Though I didn't say that explicitly, so fair's fair.


Oh you shouldn't cut people off just because of unrequited emotion. But you are totally free to go a different way because they do not want the same thing.

Like, there seems to be this idea a lot of people have that it's wrong to only be interested romantically in a person. But it totally is. A relationship isn't a friendship with sex, it's a totally different thing. If you're looking for a romantic relationship you do not have to take a friendship as some sort of second best, you don't have to feel like a dick for rejecting that and parting your ways. (unless you act like a dick in it, then of course you should feel like a dick.)

Not directed at you or anything btw, just something I feel people forget about when this discussion takes place.
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Mystchevious



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Dogen

A day late and a dollar short. But, that's ok welcome to the party. Your argument that I'm arguing nothing is more true than not. I concede this, but these are weird circumstances.

Understand that we have a constitutional right to say more or less whatever comes to our head. Just the way it works. Now if you look at what I've said I've never told monkey to shut up. I've pointed out where I think she's unjustly told other people to shut up, but I've never dissuaded her from speaking her mind. Beyond me not having the right to force her to censure her for what she's said It's the internet so in the end we're all losers in this argument.

So why even bother to keep arguing? It's kinda like a game. She keeps challenging me to reply saying I'm going to "stomp off in a huff" and I am interested in seeing her reply. As I said I don't expect anyone to change their minds and I'm not siding with anyone. Contrary to monkey's belief that I've hopped into bed (so to speak) with Guests arguments.

So how does any of this tie into the original point of the argument? Simple. If you've been placed in the friendzone by a a young woman or man and you are unhappy about it you have a right, legal and otherwise, to vocalize it. You do not have the right to emotional manipulation, you do not have a right to physical violence, you do not have the right to slander them. As I've said before those acts are not tie ins to being in the friend zone those are tie ins to criminal activity and general asshattery.

I hope this makes more sense to you now.
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