welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Religion, Atheism, What-Have-You
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 27, 28, 29 ... 43, 44, 45  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
The fact that a child can be well mannered and kind doesn't mean that talking to their imaginary friend is a healthy thing for them to be doing as an adult.


Religion is healthy from a psychological viewpoint. It gives a person something to hope for, a moral code, a reason to better themselves, a sense of purpose in life, prayer is cathartic, etc. It is only those extremists who think that they have to impose their moral beliefs on others that are problematic in society. They also happen to be the most vocal which reflects badly on those who just want to derive some meaning from life. Being right isn't a suffiecent excuse to be an asshole and deprive someone of their the way they found to live a happy and fulfilling life.


Bullshit.

BULL=SHIT

BULLLLLLLSHIIIIIIT

Religion needs to stop trying to co-opt moral codes and morality. Espeically any of the "big three" since they're basically full of "holy" people doing amoral shit all over everything.

Look if i recognized at 8 that the sunday school teacher was full of crap when she was telling me about noah's ark, there's no fucking reason for a fully grown adult to tell me that their imaginary friend whom they have no evidence of whatsoever is the root of all morality.


No. I agree that they are full of crap, but if they are not infringing on your beliefs you have no right to condemn them for living a life that they find meaningful.


Who funded prop 8 in california?

Jesus christ how can you claim that the various churches and sects don't infringe . Abortion, Gay rights, evolution, Abstinence only education, the list goes on and on.


I didn't say that various churches don't infringe on other people's rights. I said if individual religious people don't then there's no excuse to belittle them. I was refuting your claim that because they hold erroneous beliefs they deserve your scorn.


That's not a refutation, thats your opinion. My opinion is that if you have an association with a religion that works to promote second class citizens and you sit silently while they do this in your name, you're trash first off, and second off it's still no different from a fully grown adult having an imaginary friend, who tells them to how to behave.


Good for you. So, you consider all christians to be the same as mormons, then? Or are you narrowing your scope to, say, certain sects of certain religions?

Because if it's the former, that's frankly pretty friggen idiotic, but, hey, who am I to stop you. Continue Not Liking Thing.
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3271

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Certain sects are more prone to interference in the lives of others. Other sects just quietly try to vote other peoples rights away.

All sects are childlike in their love for their imaginary friend they have no evidence for.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Certain sects are more prone to interference in the lives of others. Other sects just quietly try to vote other peoples rights away.

All sects are childlike in their love for their imaginary friend they have no evidence for.


Ah, those are the only two options, eh? The only two possible ways which religions interact with civil rights?

Monkey Mcdermott, you don't know what you're talking about, so STFU.
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3271

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 703

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
No.


Well, if you wish to continue displaying your ignorance while you mock people for being ignorant, I suppose you can be my guest. It is honestly rather entertaining.

EDIT: And, eh, perhaps that was unnecessarily hostile and dickish of me, I suppose I sometimes get frustrated and wish to repay assholishness with assholishness.
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger


Last edited by Felgraf on Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6020
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
...how exactly are the likes of Thomas Aquinas et al on the same par as this stuff, again?


Aquinas, among others, settled the debate over whether to accept all this Aristotelian philosophy and science by reinterpreting it to make it compatible with Christian theology. the alternative rested with the likes of Bonaventure, who wanted to throw it out and stick with the prevailing Platonic philosophy. yet Aristotle's system provided an impetus for the study of scientific questions, while Plato's system does not--which is why, after knowledge of Aristotle's system arrived in western Europe, people started turning towards recognizably scientific questions in systematic ways. and Aquinas was responsible for that, because he made Aristotle palatable to the prevailing institution of learning. had he not done so, the Church may well have stuck with a philosophy that explicitly demands you to turn your attention away from this world--and that is about as anti-science as it gets.

science eventually left Aquinas/Aristotle, while the Church did not, and the Church resisted every attempt to leave Aquinas/Aristotle--which is why the Church's relationship to science is so complex. but plopping yourself down and declaring that the Church was some massive force of anti-intellectualism is historically false.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5171
Location: No.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The person here who actually knows stuff about philosophy.has spoken!

So Aquinas did do something important, but it was only necessary because of the state of Christian theology at the time? or...
_________________
butts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would not say that Platos theory of forms is by definition antiscientific. It helps a lot when pondering objectivity in the modern sense. However, it was not as motivational to drive early scientific progress and discovery.
_________________
\m/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6020
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the Church was the only institution at the time in Europe that could support this sort of intellectual activity. if Aristotelian philosophy and science were going to be advanced anywhere, it would have been in the Church. and seeing as how the Church at first condemned Aristotelian philosophy before they eventually accepted Aquinas' version of it, Aquinas wound up saving the antecedents of science.

it's not like there was some better way it could have plausibly turned out.

Yrvani wrote:
Would not say that Platos theory of forms is by definition antiscientific. It helps a lot when pondering objectivity in the modern sense.


but the corresponding impulse to turn away from the physical world is pretty much antithetical to modern science. you can't do modern science by sitting around trying to think your way to the Form of whatever you're studying and comprehend it in the light of the Form of the Good. the empiricism that modern science depends on traces itself back to Aristotle--and Aristotle, as interpreted by Aquinas, was the one who eventually won over the Church.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:

but the corresponding impulse to turn away from the physical world is pretty much antithetical to modern science. you can't do modern science by sitting around trying to think your way to the Form of whatever you're studying and comprehend it in the light of the Form of the Good. the empiricism that modern science depends on traces itself back to Aristotle--and Aristotle, as interpreted by Aquinas, was the one who eventually won over the Church.


Oh, clearly not, but it is a reminder that we are never truly objective and that we need to surpass our own subjectivity as far as possible. It is a good set of thought experiments to base understanding of objectivity on. I would go so far to say that anyone with an understanding of objectivity that only streches as far as grammar would have difficulties with modern science.
_________________
\m/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17043
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
mouse wrote:
Felgraf wrote:

What I meant was: A very large chunk of people in the world haven't done the math themselves, or any of the experiments. I realize there's a lot of tech based of quantem mechanics, and that the local hidden variable theorem *HAS* been disproven. (.. I still have trouble wrapping my head around how Bell came up with that test.) A lot of people believe it exists, but a lot of the people haven't really read up on how it works, or done the math, etc etc.


this really exploded, but i just want to state that i really look forward to your presentation of the mathematical proof of god.


You're not going to get one, especially because I'm not sure I *believe* in god.


because you haven't done the math?
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17043
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
You see this kitten? He's called Toby and he likes being tickled under the tummy.




I know you're not the worst offender, but I just have to point out that if this thread doesn't stop getting off topic, Simon's going to have to murder Toby.


NOOOOO NOT TOBEEEEEEEEEE!
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17043
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

although he looks a little nervous there. why do i think simon is describing ways he's going to do poor toby in?
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 17043
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
mouse wrote:
Yrvani wrote:
There is a lot of religious people on this planet, hell, even a lot of jews or christians or muslims who would be further down the "don't believe" than the "do believe" scale if you ask them "do you believe in God?"


then why the fuck do they identify themselves as members of a religion, if they don't believe in the absolute core concept of that religion, i.e., that their god exists? why not have the honesty to call themselves agnostics?

i'm totally going to ridicule them for that.


And what says you can't be agnostic and still a christian? Who are you to go around and tell people what religous culture they can or cannot identify with?


saying "i'm a christian, but i'm not sure God the Father and his son Jesus Christ actually exist" is like saying "i'm a feminist, i'm just not convinced men and women should have equal rights". you are trying to opt out of the core principle of the group to which you profess to belong.

and in that, you are exactly like the child who thinks he is a helicopter. you've got no motivating power, and you will never get airborne.

a religious _culture_ is not at all the same as a religion, nor does being surrounded by that culture make you a member of the religion. i was raised in a male-dominant culture; that doesn't make me a man.

what exactly do you think christianity is, anyway? since, you know, it doesn't actually involve any belief in christ.
_________________
aka: neverscared!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

saying "i'm a christian, but i'm not sure God the Father and his son Jesus Christ actually exist" is like saying "i'm a feminist, i'm just not convinced men and women should have equal rights". you are trying to opt out of the core principle of the group to which you profess to belong.

and in that, you are exactly like the child who thinks he is a helicopter. you've got no motivating power, and you will never get airborne.

a religious _culture_ is not at all the same as a religion, nor does being surrounded by that culture make you a member of the religion. i was raised in a male-dominant culture; that doesn't make me a man.

what exactly do you think christianity is, anyway? since, you know, it doesn't actually involve any belief in christ.


Feminism is an ideology, a philosophy. There are cultural bits to it, but not thousands of years of culture and ritual to take into consideration.

Barring certain sects and specialized churches, areas, even countries (you're not the only one who thinks to define this) it is perfectly valid to identify as christian or muslim if you have been raised in or adopted such a cultural environment and follow some of the rituals even if it's just resorting to prayer occasionally. Belief or faith is something personal, something you may not even share with anyone but yourself or a priest. These religions come with family, tradition, certain guidelines for how to lead your life. These things are to a lot of people paramount to actual, spiritual acceptance and belief in a deity.

You cannot try and separate "religious culture" from "religion". Especially when using such broad terms as "Christian, Muslim, Jew". It's a package deal.

Being Jewish is slightly more complex. You're born with it, regardless of if you choose to believe, follow rituals or traditions. Adopting it is pretty fucking hard.
_________________
\m/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 27, 28, 29 ... 43, 44, 45  Next
Page 28 of 45

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group