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Religion, Atheism, What-Have-You
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sojobo wrote:

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
you're trash first off, and second off it's still no different from a fully grown adult having an imaginary friend, who tells them to how to behave.

I know you're just trolling, but this is the same sort of idiocy as religious people claiming the non-religious have no morals. It's based on a complete lack on interest in understanding the other side, and it's childish and harmful.


What makes you think Monkey is trolling?
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:


Hm. I get why. Feminism has rightful issues with it. Everyone takes it very personally, and only those with fringe opinions will really speak up about it or find it a relevant topic.

But I think it is time for religious people to speak up a bit. At least where I live we're getting awfully close to down right persecution of anyone who shows the least tendency towards religion, and I think it's wrong. Left to linger and fester that kind of attitude does lead to even more extremist prejudice in a society. A mentality of "everyone should be like us", downright colonial.

Not a supporter of "eye for an eye". Not a big fan of assumptions or prejudice or force-labelling or stripping people of their right to identify themself.


Sorry but it sounds a lot like



Just sayin', y'know?
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
sojobo wrote:

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
you're trash first off, and second off it's still no different from a fully grown adult having an imaginary friend, who tells them to how to behave.

I know you're just trolling, but this is the same sort of idiocy as religious people claiming the non-religious have no morals. It's based on a complete lack on interest in understanding the other side, and it's childish and harmful.


What makes you think Monkey is trolling?



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Yrvani



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:


Sorry but it sounds a lot like



Just sayin', y'know?


Would be applicable if I lived in a country where religion was the norm. I don't. I'm also not religious.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:

I know you're just trolling, but this is the same sort of idiocy as religious people claiming the non-religious have no morals. It's based on a complete lack on interest in understanding the other side, and it's childish and harmful.


Except there's plenty of evidence of non religious people having the same or in some cases superior morals, and still no evidence of their imaginary friend.
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Arkhron



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:

Would be applicable if I lived in a country where religion was the norm. I don't. I'm also not religious.


And

Yrvani wrote:
But I think it is time for religious people to speak up a bit. At least where I live we're getting awfully close to down right persecution of anyone who shows the least tendency towards religion, and I think it's wrong


Emphasis are mine, pointing the inconsistency. Are you religious or not?.

And where do you live that atheism is the norm and the religious persons are "awfully close to down right persecution" by atheist?

And sorry, totally applies, comparing your opression as christian in western society with feminist opression is


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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yo Yrvani

you know Simon Amstell has some pretty strong Jewish heritage, yea?

he has a whole bit about how his parents weren't completely happy about who his brother was with because she wasn't a Jew

Arkhron wrote:

And sorry, totally applies, comparing your opression as christian in western society with feminist opression is




Christians are pretty big on the whole 'persecution' schtick for some reason, even though for the most part it's the complete opposite.

People who are not actually facing adversity often like to feel like they're rising up in the face of adversity. It makes what they're doing feel more meaningful. Like they have a common foe binding them together.

Christians are actually persecuted in some places, but atheists are persecuted just as harshly or even more so in those places, so I'm guessing Yrvani isn't posting from one of those places based on certain attitudes she's expressed.


...hmm... username starts with Yrv... largely non-religious country with some Christian history... Sweden, maybe?
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:



...hmm... username starts with Yrv... largely non-religious country... Sweden, maybe?


They said that on the last page, yes.

EDIT: Bah, that sounded snippy, sorry. WAs just confirming Yes, Sweden.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I skimmed over most of that page because it was mostly stupid bullshit that I wasn't involved with. Must have skipped that post entirely.


It's very strange to me that someone is calling mouse a bigot so vehemently. Never thought that would happen. 'course, they were calling me a bigot too, soooo
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Arkhron



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kinda strange. I am from Spain and we in the south see Sweden, Norway, Iceland and Denmark like equality paradises, with amazing education sistem, large freedoms and efficient public healtcare.

I am not saying that this is the reality, never been in the north, but here in the mediterranean we always use them as example of a more advanced society.

Kinda strange, I think.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, we can't judge Sweden based on a few bad apples like Yrvani.

I'm still quite confident that I would like it there.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Dogen wrote:
So you know there are a lot of people who identify as Jews culturally but not religiously, right?

What Yrvani wrote:
Yes. I know you can be jewish/christian/muslim and not believe in a god.

You know these are not the same thing, and that you also said:
Quote:
You cannot try and separate "religious culture" from "religion". Especially when using such broad terms as "Christian, Muslim, Jew". It's a package deal.

I didn't say anything about belief in God. I said you can separate Jewish culture from the Jewish religion, as evidenced by the many non-religious Jews. How you got from there to not believing in God is beyond me (many non-religious people still believe in God).

Quote:
Quote:
You can only assume he is not saying exactly what Feit thinks he's saying. Without asking him everyone in this conversation is making assumptions about the possible subtexts of the things he said. You can only assume he's a bigot by choosing an interpretation that fits that analysis for which there is no direct evidence. At this point it's your assumptions versus theirs. You can assume he's lumping people with diverse beliefs into one category and mocking them for it. Or, you can assume he's using a generic definition of people of faith and mocking the general tenets of those faiths and by extension anyone who holds them (which would thus exclude anyone who doesn't). The choice is yours, but you're still making an assumption either way.


Bigotry can be when you attack someone based on religion. Religion is bigger than just saying "I believe in god". Religion is also "I'm a jew", "I'm a christian", "I'm a muslim". Bigotry is attacking someone for saying or identifying as that, and it is made even worse if you automatically assume that just because one person says one of these things one believes in a deity.

I read what I read. I don't make further assumptions. What I read was a bigoted statement doing the exact thing I said in the above section.

Yes, yes, Simon may have been saying something bigoted. My point was that it requires you to make assumptions about his position, which makes decrying the use of assumption by others irrational. Amstell did not define what he meant when he said, "I'm a Jew," etc. You inferred his position, and inferred it differently than others did. I'm not really sure how you can recognize when other people are making assumptions but not when you are. You most certainly did "make further assumptions" and even brought in whole concepts that Amstell never addressed (such as belief in God). Whether you're right is totally secondary - I don't know enough about Amstell to know whether your assumptions are any more valid than anyone else's.

Sojobo wrote:
I assume he is saying exactly what Feit thinks he is saying. It is still wrong. Being a condescending ass toward a large group of people because of a belief they hold (and for no other reason) is still bigotry.

He may very well have been bigoted in his statement, but that wasn't the point I was arguing. I tried to make it more clear above. I have no attachment to the Amstell quote. I was bothered by the hypocrisy of making sweeping assumptions about what someone meant and then telling someone else (Feit) their position was weak because it was assumptive.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amstell is himself a Jew, by Yrvani's interpretation.
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Arkhron



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, Heretical, dont call Yrvani a bad apple. She is like me, an active newbie looking for a place to learn and have fun. I hope.

But I am really curious about her statements about christian opression. The burden of proof is upon her. I would love 5-6 links with examples, like a nation wide bill against equal marriage rights ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act ) or a state proposition against the whole marriage issue ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposition_8 ) or atheistics organizations with a big emphasis of fighting others rights and freedoms ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westboro_Baptist_Church ) or groups trying to take from women their right to choose ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pro_life ) or the women inequal pay for equal work, or...

I will love to know more about the real sweden. Maybe we in the south of Europe have idealized them...
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
mouse wrote:

you realize that this is the logic that hitler used to send thousands of secular jews, and even jews who had converted to christianity to their deaths in concentration camps, because one drop of jewish blood makes you a jew.


I'm pretty dumbfounded. I retract my earlier apology, because you clearly are a bigoted ignorant person.

More things come into play with Judaism than "having a drop of jewish blood". Being born of a Jewish mother (who mustn't have commited to any other faith) is the actual definition of how to become jewish. Could you please read up on things before you make very hurtful and idiotic comments?

Actually, nevermind. I have better things to do than play your bloody schoolteacher. Good day to you, bigot.


you are right, i should read up. because of course none of my jewish friends could possibly be right about what it means to be jewish. especially not the one who converted, because you know - that couldn't have really happened.

i _have_ read a lot about the nazi era, and how far they went to root out "jewishness" based on racial identity, rather than belief. so i'm a little leery of jew=race thing.

but you clearly have even less interest in hearing what i actually say than in telling me anything actually useful (and i notice that you _still_ haven't explained what, exactly, you think a religion _is_) but whatever.

toodles, christian nazi.
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