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Religion, Atheism, What-Have-You
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just gonna mention here that Arkhon lives in Spain, is a non-native speaker of English (though it's been improving, kudos to you!), and works in a church.
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But one thing, I am a spaniard but I have emigrated to Mexico due the economic crisis, where I got married a month-and-days ago. And it is a surprise, but I have found I express myself (slightly) better when I am not worried about my lack of language skill.

Yay, you noticed me! Thanks! Very Happy

And... erhm... how this affects what I said? Embarassed
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What do you do in the church?
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Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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Location: At the Hundredth Meridian

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Ok, so from reading the wiki article on 'agnostic theist', the last paragraph says this:
Quote:
Christian Agnostics (distinct from a Christian who is agnostic) practice a distinct form of agnosticism that applies only to the properties of God. They hold that it is difficult or impossible to be sure of anything beyond the basic tenets of the Christian faith. They believe that God exists, that Jesus has a special relationship with him and is in some way divine, and that God should be worshiped. This belief system has deep roots in Judaism and the early days of the Church.

So it's basically the theological equivalent of first year philosophy students?
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Vox Raucus



Joined: 31 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:
Belief in God does not make you a christian - it makes you a theist.


I dissent here. Belief in god makes you a theist. Belief in God, capital G like a personal noun, makes you a christian. Jehova's Witnesses are the only ones that uses a variation of the tetragrammaton as personal noun of the christian god (low case letter here)

Belief in a supernatural divine being makes you a deist. Belief in a personal God makes you a theist. Sikhs speak about a personal god, as do Muslims and Jews. What makes these religions different is not the different names they use for God, but the character and content of the revealed truths that the various theistic religions espouse. If a person believes in a personal God, but does not believe in the Trinity, it's hard to define that person as a Christian.

Arkhon wrote:
Vox Raucus wrote:

It's not easy. Which Creed should be authoritative? None of the Creeds are flawless, nor do any of them contain a perfect summary of Christian doctrine.


And I am not saying that. Is fun to read each creed to see the differences between branches of christianism. But you also can see what all they have in common: The belief in God and in Christ.

But believe *what* about God and Christ? What if you believe that Christ was simply a decent human being? What if you believe that Jesus was actually the twin brother of Lucifer? What if you don't believe in the Trinity, but believe that God left heaven to possess the human Jesus in order to make him the Christ, and then left to become the Spirit?

At various points throughout the history of the church, theological questions were raised and answered in very specific ways by a consensus of bishops. The church excluded certain beliefs as heresy (or unchristian), and managed to preserve a certain broad definition of Christianity, leading to the exclusion of certain groups. Some examples: the council of Nicaea prohibited the belief that Jesus was created (Arianism), the council of Chalcedon excluded the belief that there was a single nature in Christ, thereby alienating the Coptic churches. However, after the Great Schism of 1054, where the Eastern and Western branches of Christianity excommunicated each other, it became difficult to maintain any sort of universal definition of Christianity. The Reformation made it substantially more difficult.

The point I'm making is that the content of creedal statements matters (or should matter), as more than one religion acknowledges a personal God and the historical importance of Jesus Christ.

EDIT - I should amend that to say that when developing a definition of "Christian" the content of creedal statements matter, but given the current proliferation of sectarian groups, I'm pessimistic that such a definition can be reached. Either it is vague to the point of not really describing anything, or it's significantly exclusive of many groups that would self identify as Christian.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can believe in God and Jesus but also be a Satanist. Luciferians, for example, believe that Lucifer is actually the good one and that the bible is basically PR for an evil god. (I'm sure there are many different takes on luciferianism, but I'm going with what I remember when i was into Satanism. Things may have changed since then.).
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
What do you do in the church?


Pick up the phone, fill paperwork for the bishop office, inform to believers about baptism requisites, open and close the church, write names in the books of faith and that.

Is not my dream job and I feel hypocrite every day. I am looking for a better job (not only better paid, also with no paradigm dissonance XD) and with a bit of luck I will change my job at the end of this mont. I hope.

Vox Raucus:

You seems an intelligent person. I hope you see that here is a context in what I am saying. The context, essentially, is that Yrvani thinks that one person can be called "christian" even if he/she doesn't believe in god nor christ.

Please, stand in that context. I understand, you understand than the theological situation is far complex, but in this conversation, it is (or pretends) a rebutal of Yrvani's claim.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
What do you do in the church?


Pick up the phone, fill paperwork for the bishop office, inform to believers about baptism requisites, open and close the church, write names in the books of faith and that.

Is not my dream job and I feel hypocrite every day. I am looking for a better job (not only better paid, also with no paradigm dissonance XD) and with a bit of luck I will change my job at the end of this mont. I hope.


Sounds like fun. Or something. Smile I used to think it would be fun to get a iob like that, do it for awhile and then announce, "Haha, I am an atheist and I have not burst into flame coming in here!" And then leave with a grand exit.

Good luck getting another job!
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vox Raucus wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Ok, so from reading the wiki article on 'agnostic theist', the last paragraph says this:
Quote:
Christian Agnostics (distinct from a Christian who is agnostic) practice a distinct form of agnosticism that applies only to the properties of God. They hold that it is difficult or impossible to be sure of anything beyond the basic tenets of the Christian faith. They believe that God exists, that Jesus has a special relationship with him and is in some way divine, and that God should be worshiped. This belief system has deep roots in Judaism and the early days of the Church.

So it's basically the theological equivalent of first year philosophy students?

Laughing
Well played, sir.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

do they also raise their hands in the seminary and filibuster the class with irrelevant twenty-minute questions about Heidegger?

they're not really equivalent to philosophy students if they don't
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Lasairfiona



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
You can believe in God and Jesus but also be a Satanist. Luciferians, for example, believe that Lucifer is actually the good one and that the bible is basically PR for an evil god. (I'm sure there are many different takes on luciferianism, but I'm going with what I remember when i was into Satanism. Things may have changed since then.).

If you read the Satanist Bible, you totally get that they are hedonists with Daddy issues. I always liked the hedonist part though I have a bit too much empathy to pull it off. The Daddy issues? I have enough daddy and Daddy issues to fuck around with it. In fact, I don't treat it as anything other than Christianity - if it is based on an existing religion, it is part of that religion dammit.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
You can believe in God and Jesus but also be a Satanist. Luciferians, for example, believe that Lucifer is actually the good one and that the bible is basically PR for an evil god. (I'm sure there are many different takes on luciferianism, but I'm going with what I remember when i was into Satanism. Things may have changed since then.).

If you read the Satanist Bible, you totally get that they are hedonists with Daddy issues. I always liked the hedonist part though I have a bit too much empathy to pull it off. The Daddy issues? I have enough daddy and Daddy issues to fuck around with it. In fact, I don't treat it as anything other than Christianity - if it is based on an existing religion, it is part of that religion dammit.


Yeah, but not all Satanists follow the Satanic Bible, and some follow it liberally. I had this conversation with a Laveyan Satanist once:

Me: But how can you follow that sect? The Satanic Bible is oppressive to women!*
Her: I just don't follow that part. The good stuff outweighs the bad, and I just toss out the bad.

*This is because of rituals requiring women to sexually service men. I don't remember everything about it, but it seemed very hypocritical to me that this book espoused freedom for everyone - but women were supposed to be subservient, at least during rituals. I get it was supposed to be a tossing out of prudishness from the Christian bible, but it seemed that was only done for the benefit of the dudes.

A little bit after, I realized this was the sort of conversation some Christians might have with each other, and I gained some understanding of how people could continue to follow a religion even if some or most of its teachings are at odds with what they believe.

And then I founded my own personal take on Satanism. And then I eventually overcame all my stupid fears from my stupid fundamentalist type upbringing, so I moved on to atheism, Buddhism, and Paganism, alternating them depending on how I felt.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey someone define me. For reference, I was raised Lutheran, Missouri Synod, but I don't identify with that anymore.

I generally call myself agnostic.

I believe you can not prove or disprove the existence of god, but I also believe that there are things that humans can not understand, and that there are also things were are simply incapable of understanding as the species we currently are.
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde, you are a fine piece of agnostic ^^

Stripeypants wrote:
Sounds like fun. Or something. I used to think it would be fun to get a iob like that, do it for awhile and then announce, "Haha, I am an atheist and I have not burst into flame coming in here!" And then leave with a grand exit.

Good luck getting another job!


And I am tempted to do that in my work, but my dad taugh me to leave from places like a gentleman, so...
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like agnosticism!

And I was taught by my parents that everyone is out to get you, and that you must be afraid because everyone wants to kill you. Good parents.
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