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2013-01-20: Gender Programming
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6632

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in my defense, I was mentioned by name. I had been planning to avoid the thread.
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Samsally the GrayAce
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Peanut Gallery wrote:
The problem with the design format is it implies those desires come from an outside source, which they might not. And that they are something that need rescuing from, which again, by themselves, they don't.

Unless its a deliberate attempt by the Patriarchy to dress it up as nice and desirable, which it could be, I'm not sure, I don't much care for the message I personally interpreted.

I think showing actual negative and often impossible standards that societies often hold women up to would have made the message a lot less ambiguous.

I'd direct you to Succubus1982's post for a better understanding then.

The strip isn't condemning traditionally feminine behavior. It's condemning the line of thought that says "girls, you HAVE to do this to be a girl."

Like I said, it's in the title of the strip.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3836
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LarsenSan wrote:
"Hai gusy lookat mee. I is crtizizin' patrarchys!"

Oh dear, this thing again? And this time is taken to an extreme.

-"Little girls should NOT play with dolls!" OK, did you ask them what they want?

-"Women should NOT wear makeup and spend time getting ready!" That's fine. But remember that we men won't shave ourselves or use deodorant anymore.

-"Women should NOT get married!" What's this, some kind of hippie commune propaganda?

-"Women should NOT become sluts!" First of all, there are people who enjoy being sluts, men and women (although is waaaaay more difficult for men to do it), second, how-the-heck is this the next step after being married?

I miss the old days, when sinfest was funny and not a disgusting mess of stupidity.

Yes Tatsuya, did you read me?

YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID!


oh man, the worst part is that you're probably a real person.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally find the idea that women are so manipulable as to have their life expectations programmed by society a bit offensive. Especially now in an age where women have been shown to be able and stimulated to pursue their own choices rather than what other expect from them, moreso than men, should I add.

It's all that I wanted to say. Personally I can get behind some aspects of feminist theory, but certain things are just not true.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mr Gary wrote:
Mikewee777 wrote:
I've noticed that the feminist and gay community really hates the asexuals. They are never mentioned. In fact, my spell-checker is crossing it out in red.


Wait what?

So your spell-checker is anti-AS? Or did the feminists and gays programme your spell-checker? How about you dl a dumbassmotherfucker-checker?



Maybe there's a secret feminist and gay ...agenda to undermine spellcheck?

Oh hey, my spellcheck says that spellcheck isn't a word. That's undeniable proof right there.

CHECKMATE

Leohan wrote:
I personally find the idea that women are so manipulable as to have their life expectations programmed by society a bit offensive. Especially now in an age where women have been shown to be able and stimulated to pursue their own choices rather than what other expect from them, moreso than men, should I add.

It's all that I wanted to say. Personally I can get behind some aspects of feminist theory, but certain things are just not true.


....are you trying to say that society doesn't influence people? Or was that an accidental byproduct of what you're actually trying to say


cuz most people are direct products of their upbringing and peer groups on top of their base personalities

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
LarsenSan wrote:
*idiocy*


oh man, the worst part is that you're probably a real person.


but I'm not
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
Posts: 290

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peer pressure and cultural expectations make Jack a dull boy
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1111

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
....are you trying to say that society doesn't influence people? Or was that an accidental byproduct of what you're actually trying to say


Not accurate. Society does influence people. It just doesn't define them. In the same way that this comment might influence a couple of replies, but I can't be sure of what they will be.

This is a very stupid example, of course, but most of what society exerts is morals. And even then the amount of people blindly following those moral expectations is limited. Eventually people decide what they want to believe in.

EDIT: I know that I'm saying something controversial, but please don't put me in the same bag of the spellcheck guy. He's an idiot.


Last edited by Leohan on Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
Peer pressure and cultural expectations make Jack a dull boy


That opinion is in itself a result of your interactions with society.
Leohan wrote:
It just doesn't define them.

I don't think the comic implied that it did.

Leohan wrote:


EDIT: I know that I'm saying something controversial, but please don't put me in the same bag of the spellcheck guy. He's an idiot.

I didn't. I reply to multiple things in a single post because it would be stupid to make multiple sequential posts of me just making one-line replies to people.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Leohan wrote:
It just doesn't define them.

I don't think the comic implied that it did.


...I might be wrong, but personally that's exactly what I read. "If girls aren't aware of the fact that someone is manipulating them, they will invariably do X, Y and Z."

Heretical Rants wrote:
Leohan wrote:
EDIT: I know that I'm saying something controversial, but please don't put me in the same bag of the spellcheck guy. He's an idiot.

I didn't. I reply to multiple things in a single post because it would be stupid to make multiple sequential posts of me just making one-line replies to people.


I know that you didn't. I'm just saying for future reference.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
....are you trying to say that society doesn't influence people? Or was that an accidental byproduct of what you're actually trying to say


Not accurate. Society does influence people. It just doesn't define them. In the same way that this comment might influence a couple of replies, but I can't be sure of what they will be.

This is a very stupid example, of course, but most of what society exerts is morals. And even then the amount of people blindly following those moral expectations is limited. Eventually people decide what they want to believe in.

EDIT: I know that I'm saying something controversial, but please don't put me in the same bag of the spellcheck guy. He's an idiot.



Surely you'll back this up with something other than your gut feelings, perhaps reference a degree in some field of study relevant to your position? Perhaps a link to some sort of peer reviewed paper?
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
Leohan wrote:
It just doesn't define them.

I don't think the comic implied that it did.


...I might be wrong, but personally that's exactly what I read. "If girls aren't aware of the fact that someone is manipulating them, they will invariably do X, Y and Z."


It would be stupid to say "invariably" and it would also be stupid to say "just girls," or even that this was entirely intentional manipulation and not largely meme-driven.

congratulations on constructing something stupid to disagree with


Maybe 'Nique just didn't feel that all that was healthy for a young girl. Some things can be quite damaging, especially if you're only exposed to one perspective.
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
I personally find the idea that women are so manipulable as to have their life expectations programmed by society a bit offensive. Especially now in an age where women have been shown to be able and stimulated to pursue their own choices rather than what other expect from them, moreso than men, should I add.

It's all that I wanted to say. Personally I can get behind some aspects of feminist theory, but certain things are just not true.

Society helps shape everyone, especially children. A young girl just happened to be the subject of this strip. It doesn't mean women are more or less susceptible to manipulation.

This isn't one of the "false" things though.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1212
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This suddenly reminded me of those Concerned Children's Advertisers ads on Canadian TV in the 90's, where they remind kids that television isn't real and that you shouldn't believe everything you see on it.

Fuck I miss those old CCA ads. Looking back they taught some pretty good lessons on personal respect/safety/wellbeing/etc.

IIRC they even had one specifically for equal rights for girls, and another one about rejecting 'fashion' if it forces you to not be yourself. I should see if I can dredge those up somewhere.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Surely you'll back this up with something other than your gut feelings, perhaps reference a degree in some field of study relevant to your position? Perhaps a link to some sort of peer reviewed paper?


Sorry, I supposed it was obvious enough to not be needed. Researching "What are the things that social pressure will NOT make you be" is a bit hard, so I'll just use an example. I was raised Christian, abandoned those values to become an atheist, and then finally thought, by my own volition, that the most logical religious option is the one proposed by Aristotle: I'm not going to expand but it suffices to say that I don't represent the majority's choice.

Society raised me to be a Christian and failed miserably. It doesn't have the power to choose what I am. It only has the power to slightly suggest me to do stuff.


Giving such a limited example might be insufficient, though. Say, isn't history defined by groups of people that believe that some things far more controversial than your personal choice of religion are wrong? Slavery wasn't demolished by slaves, it was demolished by people who could benefit from slaves but thought that the widespread belief that slavery is the way that things should be was wrong. Are you saying that these people didn't have the skill to see beyond what society told them to see?

Humans are all unique and they have the choice about what they believe. The mind of a human is incredibly complex and unpredictable. To say that society is able to mold them at will is just insulting.


Last edited by Leohan on Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:32 am; edited 1 time in total
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
Leohan wrote:
It just doesn't define them.

I don't think the comic implied that it did.


...I might be wrong, but personally that's exactly what I read. "If girls aren't aware of the fact that someone is manipulating them, they will invariably do X, Y and Z."


It would be stupid to say "invariably" and it would also be stupid to say "just girls," or even that this was entirely intentional manipulation and not largely meme-driven.

congratulations on constructing something stupid to disagree with


Thank you. And yes. It's stupid. That's exactly what I'm saying. And I say girls because let's not kid ourselves this strip is singularly about what girls would do with some ideas when exposed to them. A strip that was linked in the second post was fundamentally the same idea but with men and while that was equally stupid I want to focus in the current one.

Heretical Rants wrote:
Maybe 'Nique just didn't feel that all that was healthy for a young girl. Some things can be quite damaging, especially if you're only exposed to one perspective.


I'll redirect you to panels 9 to 13. This comic is about what a young girl believes and becomes when exposed to social influence. Getting something else out of this is valid, but that was the strip's message
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