welcome to the fest
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

2013-01-20: Gender Programming
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
...

....so what you're objecting to is the use of the word 'programming,' with the perspective that it always has to mean absolute influence?


Sorry I didn't see that before. And well, as a programmer myself I see that word as a definition of how people operate. If you make a program that makes additions(and if you know what you are doing), every time you try to input two numbers for an addition it will invariably act in a completely predictable way.

I'm not sure now if that's what programming means in this context. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6508

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing that really bugs me about the "wheeee I'm playing Devils Advocate on the INTERWEBS" crowd is that they completely fail to recognize that while they frolic around in a topic that doesn't affect them very much (or if it does, it's not in a negative way) that many times they are actually talking to people who are affected deeply by it.

They completely disregard the fact that this shit and the consequences of it is very real for some people. It's not some experiment for them. It isn't some game that they can walk away from.

So the devils advocate upsets people. They make people angry and walk away laughing like "oh well I agreed with you, I just wanted to play devils advocate" and then act like that doesn't make them look like a raging asshole.

It's a special kind of lack of empathy that I'm really rather sick of. Seems to come from people that color themselves the intellectual. Really though, if you're smart and you care about other people, you'd recognize how playing the devils advocate is nearly on par with the people who are honestly hateful.
_________________
Samsally the GrayAce
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10801
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
I know. That's why I preemptively asked to not be put in the same bag as the spellcheck dude (Thank you all for not doing that. It's more than what I could ask from other forums.)

That type of courtesy may be offered on occasion, but not if you make a habit of holding ("advocating," whatever) stupid positions. As they say, lay down with dogs...

I was at work yesterday and posting from my phone, so I couldn't respond in the depth I would have liked (that is, with the half dozen peer-reviewed research papers I googled for you), but it was clear from the onset that you'd never even bothered to google "socialization," or else you'd see that there are entire sciences with branches devoted to the study of it (social psychology, sociology, anthropology).

Quote:
I don't think of this argument as an issue of feminism, though. It was mostly about the nature of social behaviour and propaganda, a topic which I find fascinating and worth discussing.

It's both, due to the effects of socialization on the behavior of both men and women.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I don't feel like quoting and unquoting and so so I'll just put your names and then the replies. I know, lazy, but it's been a while since I last used forums.

Samsally: Really? I didn't know that it was a trend. I'm deeply sorry if you or anyone else felt offended by my comments. They were meant to bring on an interesting debate on social nature with which we all could learn something.

And no. It's not a game. At least not conceptually. I just happen to find it fun and educational on a personal level. You are free to take it as you will.

As much as my smooth Orson Welles avatar may seem to indicate the contrary, I don't consider myself a great intellectual. I have some thing that I'm good at and some things that I don't know shit about. While I consider myself smart, though, I wasn't able to see myself as hateful. I tried to be calm and rational through the discussion for it to work.

Most important of all, though: If anyone felt offended by my comments of human minds being more powerful than the external factors trying to influence it, they are in the wrong fucking forum, because I saw the kind of discussions that normally happen here.



Dogen: Don't worry. I won't make it a habit. At one point it would become predictable.

A shame that you couldn't give the answer that you wanted. I would have liked to see it.

And well... I dunno if it counts as "an issue of feminism" because it's far too specific in order to be put in there. I don't know whole lots about what feminism is specifically supposed to be, but there are several areas of it, and I don't think that with a conversation that in a way tells a topic that concerns feminism you could call it "a discussion about feminism."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6508

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You still tote that the argument is fun for you because ~reasons~ and that anybody who is offended by it is obviously wrong and should go somewhere else. You continue to fail basic empathy all while holding yourself above it. Being calm does not make you exempt from problematic behavior.

Also, you're in a thread titled "Gender Programing" that is referencing a comic that includes all women and is not even a little subtle about the fact that the gender in question is female and you are arguing that you don't see how it's feminist. Combine this with the fact that you refuse to even look up any of the concepts you want to talk about I really have to wonder what do you actually want out of this? If it's to learn, you're doing it wrong.
_________________
Samsally the GrayAce
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
You still tote that the argument is fun for you because ~reasons~ and that anybody who is offended by it is obviously wrong and should go somewhere else. You continue to fail basic empathy all while holding yourself above it. Being calm does not make you exempt from problematic behavior.

Also, you're in a thread titled "Gender Programing" that is referencing a comic that includes all women and is not even a little subtle about the fact that the gender in question is female and you are arguing that you don't see how it's feminist. Combine this with the fact that you refuse to even look up any of the concepts you want to talk about I really have to wonder what do you actually want out of this? If it's to learn, you're doing it wrong.


No. I'm saying that anyone who is offended can be right or wrong, but should beware of the fact that conversations in here get far, far more offensive.

I know what the title of the thread is. I also know what the topic of the comic is supposed to be. I just believe that there's another level to it. This kind of manipulation isn't solely aimed at girls. It happens with everyone, and it's not just about gender roles. What the comic ultimately talks about is the fact that the media has power over what you choose to be.


EDIT: As a sidenote, I am, indeed, bad at empathy at times. I like addressing and discussing taboo topics and oftentimes am called out on it, since not everyone is in my same comfort zone. This may seem counterproductive to any arguments I am giving, but yeah, you hit the mark.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10801
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Dogen: Don't worry. I won't make it a habit. At one point it would become predictable.

I don't mind predictability. I'm predictable (that is, you probably could have posted the question, "What is Dogen likely to do in this situation," and gotten the response from people of, "list off research papers" or possibly, "mock you").

Quote:
A shame that you couldn't give the answer that you wanted. I would have liked to see it.

I WILL GIVE THEM TO YOU.
A quick definition of socialization from Britannica
A slightly more robust definition
How socialization in organization alters behaviors in adults
The effects of childhood experience (socialization) on later reproductive strategy
The effects of socioeconomic status on behavior in children
Language acquisition and socialization, specifically how caregivers use language to impart social expectations to children
The role of socialization in teaching children "their function as consumers in the marketplace"

Quote:
And well... I dunno if it counts as "an issue of feminism" because it's far too specific in order to be put in there. I don't know whole lots about what feminism is specifically supposed to be, but there are several areas of it, and I don't think that with a conversation that in a way tells a topic that concerns feminism you could call it "a discussion about feminism."

Socialization is the process of transmitting appropriate behavior across generations. Feminism is about expanding the behaviors considered appropriate (for both men and women). They are indelibly linked, and as such a conversation about the role of socialization on the behavior of young women (minique) is both an anthropological one and a feminist one.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yo leohan protip here if you're going to go all devil's advocating you should probably be 100% completely upfront and honest about it from the beginning, rather than conceal it up until you reach the point where you get argued into a corner or whatever, at which point you break out the "i was just playing devil's advocate hahaaaaaaaaa fooled you all" line to try to save face

because nobody actually believes you when you say you were just playing devil's advocate the whole time and in fact by having to express it you make clear that not even you believe it
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3750
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

War_Junky_91 wrote:
I know this comic has struck a nerve with quite a few people like it has me. And thats not really because of the comic itself, but the feminism behind it.

This particular comic is right at the line between the normal feminism line of "you dont have to fit the mold" and the crazy feminism line of "you can not be anything like a traditional female." I am willing to bet the author is trying to convey the former but it can come off as the latter. And a lot of that can come from the interpritation by the reader based on their expriences, like mine for example.

My wife is femenazi kryptonite. She WANTS to be a stay at home mom. She WANTS ten kids. And she takes offense with the femenist argument: "Men just want woman to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen." Because that is not what I want its what she wants. And trust me, my wife is in no way, shape, or form a pushover, she is going to do what she wants to do, not what someone else wants her to do.

We both feel so strongly about this we actually counter-protested a feminist rally. She had a sign that said "I choose to be a stay at home wife of my own free will" and i had a sign that said "I support her choices." The amount of vitriol and hate we got was insane. I got accused of everything from rape to brainwashing to kidnapping. But they were ten times more pissed at my wife than at me. They accused her of being brain damaged, brain washed, told her she was a horrible person, she was a pathetic excuse for a woman, and things like that, most of it a lot more vulgar than i have written here.

So when someone like me reads this comic and i see it through the lens of my own experiences i get the femenazi tones from it and not the free choice femenist tones he probably wanted.


UNGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH you idiot.
_________________
"Eight hundred pounds of nitro, his boots are thunder as he plays."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crap Dogen my reading list is long enough already
_________________
butts
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
yo leohan protip here if you're going to go all devil's advocating you should probably be 100% completely upfront and honest about it from the beginning, rather than conceal it up until you reach the point where you get argued into a corner or whatever, at which point you break out the "i was just playing devil's advocate hahaaaaaaaaa fooled you all" line to try to save face

because nobody actually believes you when you say you were just playing devil's advocate the whole time and in fact by having to express it you make clear that not even you believe it


Well, there are three things to have in mind here.

1. If I said "Yo I think X but let's pretend that I think Y! Discuss this topic." Then it wouldn't go anywhere, since I have stated that I don't believe in Y.

2. As far as I know, that's not how internet arguments do work. If I was trying to win an argument, I wouldn't have given up. I would have found endless bullshit to keep the conversation going OR found a convenient excuse to ragequit.

3. Considering the fact that we are currently discussing the moral standing behind making arguments about something you don't believe in, It seems like at least some people do believe me.

Nothing to add here

Dogen wrote:
Lots of links and a comment on my previous reply.


I shall check them out! Can't comment on them right now because they're a lot. Also, well, I guess that you are right. It's an issue that does concern both. I personally took it as an unintentional comment on the human thought (which is quite poignant, as, for instance, Fascist propaganda has shown us) rather than a comment about role models according to gender, even if that was quite obviously the original message of the strip.

Meaning, it was not my intention to discuss gender roles, really. I just wanted to take it to an anthropological level, analyzing the nature of human's mind rather than the nature of society's standards. It has become evident that I didn't make that intention quite clear.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

I honestly don't know what you are referring to in this sentence.

I was talking about playing devil's advocate. I don't think it's always productive.

I'd respond to the rest, but it seems we're mostly on the same page now as I read through your other posts.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 529
Location: 0_0

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
[quote="Heretical Rants"]
Mr Gary wrote:
Mikewee777 wrote:
I've noticed that the feminist and gay community really hates the asexuals. They are never mentioned. In fact, my spell-checker is crossing it out in red.


Wait what?

So your spell-checker is anti-AS? Or did the feminists and gays programme your spell-checker? How about you dl a dumbassmotherfucker-checker?



Maybe there's a secret feminist and gay ...agenda to undermine spellcheck?

Oh hey, my spellcheck says that spellcheck isn't a word. That's undeniable proof right there.

CHECKMATE

It's a conspiracy to get us to argue over the internet instead of spending our time more productively in the name of our superior nation!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10801
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
crap Dogen my reading list is long enough already

I don't really know if you're into it, but for some reason I'm guessing you could be, so you might enjoy googling up some stuff on language acquisition and socialization. You have two interacting effects, the use of language to impart social patterns and the socialization of language itself. Cool stuff.

Leohan wrote:
Meaning, it was not my intention to discuss gender roles, really. I just wanted to take it to an anthropological level, analyzing the nature of human's mind rather than the nature of society's standards. It has become evident that I didn't make that intention quite clear.

So... in a thread called "gender programming," with a strip about gender programming, in the middle of a conversation between multiple people about gender programming... you wanted to talk about something other than gender programming... but didn't define the scope of your own interests until the end? Yeah, you probably needed to be a little more explicit there.
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. Iíll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen: I agree.

And boy where do you get all of those links? I don't think that I'll be reading them all since some are really complete, but this is interesting stuff!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Sinfest Forum Index -> Sinfest All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Page 7 of 8

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group