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2013-01-20: Gender Programming
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3055

PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To repeat:

On another note: Could what we're seeing on the screen be The Life of Fuchsia? That looks more like her than like any other known Devil Girl.

Anyone feel like discussing this instead? Anyone, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

I actually hope it isn't Fuchsia's Tonight on Biography (Every life has an origin story.), but that might well be what Tat is implying.

I hope that 2013 brings us more Sunday strips with dialogue. I really miss having those now and then.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think that those panels portray the same person. The devil girl could be Fuchsia, which would make me feel even more bad for her because even if she doesn't work for D-man anymore her image could still be used for negatively influencing men and women alike, but I don't really feel like it actually is. Those panels are simply rose-tinted, with a traditionally considered "feminine" color. Similar to the way the matrix-styled Sunday strips were tinted green, but didn't imply that anyone involved in those strips had green hair... except, of course, the one that did.

So while it's possible that devil girl does, in fact, have pink hair, I don't think it's necessarily the case here. I do hope that he does reveal Fuchsia's backstory sometime soon, though. Dammit, I WANT YOU TO BREAK MY HEART EVEN MORE TAT!!! MAKE ME FEEL THINGS YOU BRILLIANT PIECE OF SHIT, YOU.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holocauxt wrote:
That makes me wonder: what do we (the readers) see with regards to Tat's stance on Feminism? War Junky is probably right with the "normal/modest" feminism of the comics, but what do most of us interpret?

Remember: there are modest, charismatic, and fanatic views regarding these beliefs. Maybe we can take a vote.


I see, a danger here. Remember the Arab Spring, and how after a lot of the dictators got overthrown, new ones just took their place? That's kinda what I'm afraid will happen here. The sisterhood has pretty much shown they only care about women. (Legion not allowed to have any snacks, keeping tabs on men to make sure they aren't getting out of line, the big "It's a Restraining Order Charlie Brown!" episode.) If they do finally get power and defeat the patriarchy, I'm worried they will make a "Matriarchy" kind of a "now YOU get to see how it feels".

It also worries me that the Sisterhood tries to use the Patriarchies brainwashing machines and programming machines as well. Remember when the sisterhood took control of the matrix machine, the thing that gives you unseen impulses, or when they had the male programming factories, yes it shows "resist" and "wake up" but can you really resist or wake up when the machine showing it to you FORCES you to be that way.

Wow... just a preview for Serenty on the Movie channel, and they kind of summed up the worst of my fears.

"Is it right to tell people what to think and what to feel?"

"We are not telling them what to think, were just trying to show them how."
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

Yup. Being the devil's advocate is both fun and educational. While I know fully that society does have an influence over us, I still want to point out that there are flaws in this processing thought.

I don't think it's always productive.

Regardless, you get the point as shown in bold. There aren't any flaws in it. You were arguing against something we never actually said.
War_Junky_91 wrote:
I know this comic has struck a nerve with quite a few people like it has me. And thats not really because of the comic itself, but the feminism behind it.

This particular comic is right at the line between the normal feminism line of "you dont have to fit the mold" and the crazy feminism line of "you can not be anything like a traditional female." I am willing to bet the author is trying to convey the former but it can come off as the latter. And a lot of that can come from the interpritation by the reader based on their expriences, like mine for example.

My wife is femenazi kryptonite. She WANTS to be a stay at home mom. She WANTS ten kids. And she takes offense with the femenist argument: "Men just want woman to be barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen." Because that is not what I want its what she wants. And trust me, my wife is in no way, shape, or form a pushover, she is going to do what she wants to do, not what someone else wants her to do.

We both feel so strongly about this we actually counter-protested a feminist rally. She had a sign that said "I choose to be a stay at home wife of my own free will" and i had a sign that said "I support her choices." The amount of vitriol and hate we got was insane. I got accused of everything from rape to brainwashing to kidnapping. But they were ten times more pissed at my wife than at me. They accused her of being brain damaged, brain washed, told her she was a horrible person, she was a pathetic excuse for a woman, and things like that, most of it a lot more vulgar than i have written here.

So when someone like me reads this comic and i see it through the lens of my own experiences i get the femenazi tones from it and not the free choice femenist tones he probably wanted.

I'm not condoning what they did, but you showed up specifically to undermine their protest. It's pretty normal that you'd get a hostile reaction.

Most feminists are totally cool with women who choose traditional gender roles. They just want to make sure women, and men for that matter, have a choice.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
The sisterhood has pretty much shown they only care about women.


Curly cares enough to save Squig - literal sexist pig, and male - from totally getting murdered by his violent porno when she could have left him to die or anything similar to that. Cares enough to literally directly mention guys, saying that it's alright to cry. As well as caring enough to try and sabotage the dudebro factory so that they would not be programmed into believing any one thing. The actions you described are actions of Glossy - and Glossy's actions cannot always be representative of the entire sisterhood, even though she is the more focused upon member. And even then, she cares enough to directly mention that gender roles effect men negatively and make them unhappy with being themselves as well when she could have simply addressed the negative effects upon women.

I don't agree that they only care about women, although they do likely have a bias towards females considering they're female and they're the ones who get the short end of the stick here. They're girls who help girls, because they suffer the same shit and feel the female-specific effects of the patriarchy.
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Alpha Aim



Joined: 19 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
I'm worried they will make a "Matriarchy" kind of a "now YOU get to see how it feels".

I think tat has done something like that in the past, though it was all tongue in cheek at the time.
Yeah, slick and co were some kind of Bro resistance group...
I forget which year it was.
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lead sharp



Joined: 21 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, new to forums, long time reader.

This strip is the cause of my first time post as the strip itself didn't annoy me but the fact that Nique has had a character over haul, yet Slick and co' are just becoming more Slick and co'.

There really is a sexist vibe to this series these days.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wrote:
I don't think it's always productive.


I honestly don't know what you are referring to in this sentence.

lol wrote:
There aren't any flaws in it. You were arguing against something we never actually said.


I agree. I was arguing against the comic. And the fundamental flaw in said processing thought is, fundamentally, that every individual person gets what they want from the society's standards.

I really see my point as comparable with the idea of the Demiurge: The world of ideas as separated from the real world. Let's take for example communism (Although it can be anything. Communism is just an example I take for the sake of clarity). Every person that learns about communism, including those that are heavy influenced by it, takes from the philosophy whatever they want. The idea of communism is impossible to fully transmit to anyone, if not because of different social, economical and personal issues, because every single person is born with a different identity(if we are feeling brave we can continue this conversation as a nature vs nurture one.) No man ever is a communism in its ideal value. Ideas shape themselves and change according to our personal contexts.

Rants was very clever in pointing out that the unpredictability of human behaviour may be based on the fact that many different entities affect every human. But I still believe that no two people are the same, and two individuals with the same socio-economical and learning context can take on opposite values, because the only programming that humans have is done while in the womb. People can influence you for sure. But to say that you will do what you are said to do is, I repeat, an insulting underestimation of human logic.

Everyone is influenced by lots of people, but we subconsciously choose what influences are the most important ones.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
lol wrote:
I don't think it's always productive.


I honestly don't know what you are referring to in this sentence.

lol wrote:
There aren't any flaws in it. You were arguing against something we never actually said.


I agree. I was arguing against the comic. And the fundamental flaw in said processing thought is, fundamentally, that every individual person gets what they want from the society's standards.

I really see my point as comparable with the idea of the Demiurge: The world of ideas as separated from the real world. Let's take for example communism (Although it can be anything. Communism is just an example I take for the sake of clarity). Every person that learns about communism, including those that are heavy influenced by it, takes from the philosophy whatever they want. The idea of communism is impossible to fully transmit to anyone, if not because of different social, economical and personal issues, because every single person is born with a different identity(if we are feeling brave we can continue this conversation as a nature vs nurture one.) No man ever is a communism in its ideal value. Ideas shape themselves and change according to our personal contexts.

Rants was very clever in pointing out that the unpredictability of human behaviour may be based on the fact that many different entities affect every human. But I still believe that no two people are the same, and two individuals with the same socio-economical and learning context can take on opposite values, because the only programming that humans have is done while in the womb. People can influence you for sure. But to say that you will do what you are said to do is, I repeat, an insulting underestimation of human logic.

Everyone is influenced by lots of people, but we subconsciously choose what influences are the most important ones.


In this thread, someone again goes on about societal influence without any sign of having either actually studied it, or ability to back up his assertions with any kind of study or paper.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

....so what you're objecting to is the use of the word 'programming,' with the perspective that it always has to mean absolute influence?
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
In this thread, someone again goes on about societal influence without any sign of having either actually studied it, or ability to back up his assertions with any kind of study or paper.


I dunno if it counts like a sign, but I took at least three classes of publicity in different shapes in my university. I know how powerfully people can influence other people, but I believe that there are limits to that.

And the first time it was me as well, unless you are not referring to that post before
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look, teachers are paid like 35 grand a year to educate folks, do yourself a favor and do a little google research into things like "The effects of societal influence" and like the first four options if you google "The desire for inclusion" are relevant.


Do read that stuff but the basics are thus. If you present these life decisions as the way of the world, the logical life progression, or the only desireable option, while also painting people who choose other life paths as weird or eccentric you are basically playing on peoples need to fit in and belong to "guide" their behavior.

It isn't science fiction brain control, but the exclusionary behavior that comes from not making the "right" life choices is pretty psychologically damaging and painful.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...You know, dude?


Leohan wrote:
lol wrote:
Are you a contrarian?


Yup.


There. That was basically me saying that I agree with what you are saying. Taking on an opinion that's both controversial and not fitting to my actual beliefs is a fun experiment I was making for the sake of entertainment and its learning value. Rants out-argued me so I admitted defeat.

From that point on the different opinions that we have are fundamentally nitpicks, no matter how long a post I can make about them. Discussing nitpicks doesn't do it for me.

I am no longer interested in this discussion, is what I'm trying to say. Thanks for dedicating your time to make that post, though. I appreciate that.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The downside of that is that when you do it in a forum that gets invaded by dudebros with fragile views of their masculinity every time a feminism issue gets brought up, you get to be lumped in with them!
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
The downside of that is that when you do it in a forum that gets invaded by dudebros with fragile views of their masculinity every time a feminism issue gets brought up, you get to be lumped in with them!


I know. That's why I preemptively asked to not be put in the same bag as the spellcheck dude (Thank you all for not doing that. It's more than what I could ask from other forums.)

I don't think of this argument as an issue of feminism, though. It was mostly about the nature of social behaviour and propaganda, a topic which I find fascinating and worth discussing.
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