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Mikewee777
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 456
Location: 0_0
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 Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:02 am Post subject: Ethical Dilemmas |
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Feel free to introduce your own scenarios and personal answers if you are brave enough [I wasn't brave enough to answer them].
Answer with [+] or [-]
____
[Murderer]
1. A runaway boxcar is about to run over
five people walking on the tracks. A
railroad worker is standing next to a
switch that can turn the boxcar onto a side
track, killing one person, but allowing the
five to survive. Flipping the switch is
______.
[Harvester]
2. Five people have just been rushed into a
hospital in critical condition, each
requiring an organ to survive. There is not
enough time to request organs from outside
the hospital, but there is a healthy person
in the hospital's waiting room. If the
surgeon takes this person's organs, he will
die, but the five in critical care will
survive. Taking the healthy person's organs
is _______.
[Patriot]
3. A runaway boxcar is about to run over
five foreign people trapped on the tracks.
A railroad worker is standing next to a
switch that can turn the boxcar onto a side
track, killing one person you know and love
that is tied to the tracks, but allows the
five foreigners to survive. Flipping the
switch is ______.
[Hero]
4. You are one of the potential victims of
one of these three scenarios above but you
carry a means of stopping them in advance
but it causes their death. Would you want
to know who is reponsible for moving you
into harm's way so that you could save
yourself?
______.
[God]
5. You are a deity and you forget who is
good and who is bad. Do you still have
a hell for them if it means that someone
innocent will end up there wrongfully?
______. |
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suds
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 98
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:25 am Post subject: |
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| I hate you so much. |
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WheelsOfConfusion
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 11145
Location: Unknown Kaddath
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Consider the following case:
A brain in a vat on Twin Earth is at the wheel of a runaway trolley. There are only two options that the brain can take: the right side of the fork in the track or the left side of the fork. There is no way in sight of derailing or stopping the trolley and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows trolleys. The brain is causally hooked up to the trolley such that the brain can determine the course which the trolley will take.
On the right side of the track there is a single railroad worker, Jones, who will definitely be killed if the brain steers the trolley to the right. If the railman on the right lives, he will go on to kill five men for the sake of killing them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the orphan's bus will be crossing later that night). One of the orphans that will be killed would have grown up to become a tyrant who would make good utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe, while a third would invent the pop-top can.
If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of the track, the trolley will definitely hit and kill a railman on the left side of the track, "Leftie" and will hit and destroy ten beating hearts on the track that could (and would) have been transplanted into ten patients in the local hospital that will die without donor hearts. These are the only hearts available, and the brain is aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the railman on the left side of the track lives, he too will kill five men, in fact the same five that the railman on the right would kill. However, "Leftie" will kill the five as an unintended consequence of saving ten men: he will inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten hearts to the local hospital for transplantation. A further result of "Leftie's" act would be that the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the five men killed by "Leftie" are both the man responsible for putting the brain at the controls of the trolley, and the author of this example. If the ten hearts and "Leftie" are killed by the trolley, the ten prospective heart-transplant patients will die and their kidneys will be used to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer, and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There are other kidneys and dialysis machines available, however the brain does not know kidneys, and this is not a factor.
Assume that the brain's choice, whatever it turns out to be, will serve as an example to other brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving the brain in such a manner that the brain is never sure if it is being deceived.
QUESTION: What should the brain do?
[ALTERNATIVE EXAMPLE: Same as above, except the brain has had a commisurotomy, and the left half of the brain is a consequentialist and the right side is an absolutist.] |
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Mikewee777
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 456
Location: 0_0
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:36 am Post subject: |
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Everyone has something to blame because they are unwilling to look inside of themselves. They want a scapegoat that makes them look better by comparison. That's why soldiers and deities are revered. They do what we are too scared to do ourselves.
I see the everything in me. Good and evil. You can live in what you have seen. All of it... Right down to peaks you haven't touched yet, dreams you haven't dreamed, and worlds you haven't controlled. The mind is endless. You put me in a dark, solitary cell and to you that's the end. To me... that's the beginning. There's a universe in there. The universe is in a box. In that box, I am free.
| suds wrote: | | I hate you so much. |
You hold me accountable and frees yourself from any liability and this allows you to make sexy friends with people who dislike me also.
You win and they love you for it. |
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Snorri
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10706
Location: hiding the decline.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:51 am Post subject: |
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I don't hate you for the thread, I hate you for the formatting of your post.
_________________
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Mikewee777
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 456
Location: 0_0
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| WheelsOfConfusion wrote: | | Quote: | [url=http://home
.sprynet.com/~owl1/trolley.htm]Consider the
following case[/url]:
A brain in a vat on Twin Earth is at the wheel of
a runaway trolley. There are only two options that
the brain can take: the right side of the fork in
the track or the left side of the fork. There is
no way in sight of derailing or stopping the
trolley and the brain is aware of this, for the
brain knows trolleys. The brain is causally hooked
up to the trolley such that the brain can
determine the course which the trolley will take.
On the right side of the track there is a single
railroad worker, Jones, who will definitely be
killed if the brain steers the trolley to the
right. If the railman on the right lives, he will
go on to kill five men for the sake of killing
them, but in doing so will inadvertently save the
lives of thirty orphans (one of the five men he
will kill is planning to destroy a bridge that the
orphan's bus will be crossing later that night).
One of the orphans that will be killed would have
grown up to become a tyrant who would make good
utilitarian men do bad things. Another of the
orphans would grow up to become G.E.M. Anscombe,
while a third would invent the pop-top can.
If the brain in the vat chooses the left side of
the track, the trolley will definitely hit and
kill a railman on the left side of the track,
"Leftie" and will hit and destroy ten beating
hearts on the track that could (and would) have
been transplanted into ten patients in the local
hospital that will die without donor hearts. These
are the only hearts available, and the brain is
aware of this, for the brain knows hearts. If the
rail-man on the left side of the track lives, he
too will kill five men, in fact the same five that
the railman on the right would kill. However,
"Leftie" will kill the five as an unintended
consequence of saving ten men: he will
inadvertently kill the five men rushing the ten
hearts to the local hospital for transplantation.
A further result of "Leftie's" act would be that
the busload of orphans will be spared. Among the
five men killed by "Leftie" are both the man
responsible for putting the brain at the controls
of the trolley, and the author of this example. If
the ten hearts and "Leftie" are killed by the
trolley, the ten prospective heart-transplant
patients will die and their kidneys will be used
to save the lives of twenty kidney-transplant
patients, one of whom will grow up to cure cancer,
and one of whom will grow up to be Hitler. There
are other kidneys and dialysis machines available,
however the brain does not know kidneys, and this
is not a factor.
Assume that the brain's choice, whatever it turns
out to be, will serve as an example to other
brains-in-vats and so the effects of his decision
will be amplified. Also assume that if the brain
chooses the right side of the fork, an unjust war
free of war crimes will ensue, while if the brain
chooses the left fork, a just war fraught with war
crimes will result. Furthermore, there is an
intermittently active Cartesian demon deceiving
the brain in such a manner that the brain is never
sure if it is being deceived.
QUESTION: What should the brain do?
[ALTERNATIVE EXAMPLE: Same as above, except the
brain has had a commisurotomy, and the left half
of the brain is a consequentialist and the right
side is an absolutist.] |
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___________
Disclaimer:
Anything that either of us say could be
mis-interpreted.
English language has many double-messages.
"Sherlock saw the man using binoculars".
Who was holding the binoculars?
The sentence is so vague and so poorly punctuated,
that either of them could be the user of said
object. That is the danger that is faced by going
by outdated instructions from a re-translated
language.
_____________
My brave solution:
We have to remember that we aren't saving
lives here, we are only delaying deaths.
No one here is immortal but I will make them
immortal.
Naturally, the first thing the brain is going
to do is attempt to go in reverse tapping
the break in this planet's version of "binary"
or "Morse code" to carve a "rumble strip" to point
out that it is not responsible, who is the one who
put him here.and how to not allow this to be
"serve(d) as an example" to young, naive brains to
do wrong because of it being a tradition. This
will also double as a alert to both sides and
the station to what is wrong if horn honking
is impossible.
[I was giving easy questions by comparison,
if you get to cheat, so can I.]
This original author clearly loves his own
imagined perception of Godwin's Hitler and so the
brain, if it had control [which it doesn't] would
be forced to turn left thus saving a larger amount
of identifiable people despite the fact
that these wars don't have death tolls listed.
But it doesn't matter because this story didn't
state the what the train can and can't do,
therefore it is capable of flying straight up
as it teleports out of everyone's harm's way as
it's doing this controversial"left turn".
It might even start spinning and accidentally
cause some butterflies to orgasm in a shockwave
so great that this "Twin earth" notices.
_____________
Reason why the brain has no control:
In neurosurgery, a commissurotomy may be performed
to sever the corpus callosum; doing so has been
used in cases of severe epilepsy to prevent the
two hemispheres of the brain communicating, thus
restraining the epilepsy to one hemisphere.
Well, which side has epilepsy? Are seisures
possible? Does it make my choice irrelivant
because of the brain damage? Is Jazz like
pudding and film? Or do we not know what the
Jazz is all about? The brain never had control.
_____________
>implications everywhere.
Well, assuming that magic is real, brains in jars
are self-sustaining [but not eternally],
hearts can beat without assistance [what?],
because Hitler isn't born yet [but not to live
eternally] we can safely state that this train
can't go faster than 12 miles per hour due to the
constraints of technology at the time .
Why is it called "twin earth"? Is it about to
collide with something else? How soon?
"What are the counter-factual conditionals which
ground the existence of objects true in virtue
of?"
_____________
Why is the right first? Are you some sort of
Extremist Racist Conservative? If you are going
to be like this, you might as well added some
passenger Jews to this train while you were at it.
R=kills "jones" kills 15 saves 30 but good causes
"bad-war" and no Hitler,
spares the one who put the brain at control
kills a Cat-holic philosophist [who is addicted to
kittens ] and potentially prevents soda?
How many brains are killed by soda?
brain still doesn't know kidneys, but he's not
drunk.
[There is a historical inaccuracy here,
Non-Hitler, despite being clean and a meat-eater
did good things.War crimes did not happen.
Also he was unable to save Jews from
self-inflicted cancer caused by cigarettes]
_____________
Final summary:
Why is the Left have no name? Are you some sort of
Extremist Racist Conservative? If you are going
to be like this, you might as well added some
passenger Jews to this train while you were at it.
L=kills "lefty" kills 15 saves 50 but causes
"good-war" and Hitler
kills the one who put the brain at control
kills the author of this example?
brain still doesn't know kidneys, but he's
not drunk.How many brains are not killed by soda?
[There is a historical inaccuracy here,
Hitler, despite being drugged and a vegan
did bad things.War crimes did happen.
Also he was able to save Jews from self-inflicted
cancer caused by cigarettes]
____________
Demanding that an evolutionist evolve instantly,
is the equivalent to demanding that a creationist
die and then come back to life within 3 days.Why
would anyone even need assistance in the first
part if they are already the walking brain-dead?
_____________
Bible verse lists justifying my choices:
It's strange that it's a demon making it happen
and not God.
2nd Thesselonians 2:11 "And... God shall send
them strong delusion,
that they should believe a lie. That they all
might be damned who believed not the
truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness".
Let's also consider the religious law on what a
"War-crime" is.
Deuteronomy 20:10-12
Deuteronomy 20:19-20
Deuteronomy 21:10-14
Sura Al-Baqara 2:190-193
Clearly I'm a saint by comparison.
_____________
Famous quote:
_____________
If your deity is infinitely good, what reason
should we have to fear defying his desires?
If infinity wise, why do we still have doubts
about the future?
If he still knows all, why warn of our needs and
fatigue him with our prayers?
If he is everywhere, why erect idolic temples to
him?
If He is just, why punish the creatures he created
weak?
If reasonable, how can he be angry at those who
are blind?
If he is inconceivable, why do we give our deity a
identity and history?
If he has truely spoken, why does he need
evangelists to convince us?
If he is a God of peace, why would he promise
immortality to a devout warrior?
If he truly loves children, why would he tell a
soldier to sacrifice his daughter ?
-Percy Bysshe Shelly 1792
___________
TL;DR? OK->
Is war ever really "good" or "bad"?
| Snorri wrote: |
As for "Snorri": If I had a YES/NO on my poll, it would take up to 720 different selection options or 5 different polls, causing the forum to be flooded with these when one is good enough.
Please show me a linked example of how I should format my posts in the future. I didn't mean to offend anyone with my formatting. I didn't even
make the + and - sign that big. Also no one even used them in their response to my unanswered paradoxes. So No harm, no foul. It's now obvious that you are just being angry just to be angry. I hope you enjoyed yourself. If you didn't, you aren't fapping hard enough and that's something that I don't want to know that I had anything to do with. |
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Dennis J. Squidbunny
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3524
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR
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Mikewee777
Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 456
Location: 0_0
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:25 am Post subject: |
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| Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote: | | yeah, seriously, what the fuck are you typing this all on? |
A old 64bit Turion laptop using free hospital wi-fi running Windows XP and typed out on Notepad before being copied and pasted onto here. As you can tell, the formatting got messed up. I will not go into the details of my health or the amount of free-time I have because that will alter how people who hate me feel. The more that they believe that I am suffering,the happier they will be. Who am I to try to take away that happiness?
I hope the audience is enjoying this show. It's too bad I'm not getting paid. |
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Canopus
Joined: 13 Sep 2010
Posts: 623
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 5:42 am Post subject: |
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| With word wrap off? |
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ShadowCell
Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5269
Location: California
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:12 am Post subject: |
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well, i don't hate you for your post, or for its formatting
i hate you just the way you are
C: |
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Dennis J. Squidbunny
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 3524
Location: AUSTRALIA YOU FAKIR
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 6:48 am Post subject: |
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| Mikewee777 wrote: | | Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote: | | yeah, seriously, what the fuck are you typing this all on? |
A old 64bit Turion laptop using free hospital wi-fi running Windows XP and typed out on Notepad before being copied and pasted onto here. As you can tell, the formatting got messed up. I will not go into the details of my health or the amount of free-time I have because that will alter how people who hate me feel. The more that they believe that I am suffering,the happier they will be. Who am I to try to take away that happiness?
I hope the audience is enjoying this show. It's too bad I'm not getting paid. |
they need to up your morphine.
_________________
"Eight hundred pounds of nitro, his boots are thunder as he plays." |
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Dogen
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 9321
Location: Bellingham, WA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 8:11 am Post subject: |
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This is why they invented the preview button.
Also, I can tell you statistically which answer people are more likely to choose for all of Mikewee's questions (because they're all variations on the Trolley problem, and it's been studied).
Personally, I like this one:
_________________
"Worse comes to worst, my people come first, but my tribe lives on every country on earth. I’ll do anything to protect them from hurt, the human race is what I serve." - Baba Brinkman |
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Heretical Rants
Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 3047
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:01 am Post subject: |
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| ShadowCell wrote: | well, i don't hate you for your post, or for its formatting
i hate you just the way you are
C: |
That's so sweet! We should all tell each other how much we hate each other more often.
_________________
butts |
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Michael
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10432
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| So Nelly Furtado says the songs on her first album were too intellectual, but luckily she's moved away from that. |
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Snorri
Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10706
Location: hiding the decline.
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Dogen wrote: | This is why they invented the preview button.
Also, I can tell you statistically which answer people are more likely to choose for all of Mikewee's questions (because they're all variations on the Trolley problem, and it's been studied).
Personally, I like this one:
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Ooh I like it.
_________________
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