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Leohan
Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 676
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 Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| bitflipper wrote: | | Leohan wrote: | | Good one, but your regular suicide does believe that the alternative to committing such act is worse. In this case I'll admit that "expecting a beneficial reaction" is not that accurate. It would be more like "Wants to avoid something else." |
Well, that was one of two answers I was expecting. And not a bad one, at that; the typical contemplater of suicide is indeed often seeking solace from pain, anguish, or seemingly insurmountable trials. (It's kind of pointless asking an actual suicide what he or she expected, for fairly obvious reasons.)
But, a person in a suicidal state of mind is, self-evidently, not in a rational frame of mind. It can be argued that a state of enlightened self-interest, in which ones motives for actions that primarily benefit others derive ultimately from perceived benefit to oneself--what I understand you to be claiming as the root of all human behavior, altruistic or not--is the ultimate rational state of mind. Actions are considered and weighed in the balance of risk versus benefit. Aren't these two frames of mind inherently contradictory? Can we really claim that an irrational suicide was expecting anything sensible at the time? |
AHA! Remember that I said before that mentally ill people could be excepted from this rule? There you go. ^^
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Confuzledish
Joined: 21 Jul 2012
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Is it just me, but are the 'Patriarchy Blockers' more like blinders than anything else? They make the wearer read what they want to read, and not what's actually there. 'Nique has become a walking post board for feminism, and not a vibrant person with personality. If anything she is more of an object now than she was back in the day. |
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mouse
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 15450
Location: under the bed
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Leohan wrote: | | What I'm postulating is that every living thing, human or otherwise, that actively performs an action is expecting a reaction that would benefit them in some way. |
i think you overestimate the amount of time every living thing, human or otherwise, spends actually thinking about what they do.
this morning boycat spent about two minutes attacking a completely empty spot on the floor, then he ran around the house and ended up behind the dryer (after getting briefly hung up on the ironing board). i have no idea what _possible_ benefit he thinks this has, but he does it all the time. i mean, sometimes he even runs into walls and things doing it, and that's gotta hurt.
i think you also have too specific a definition for altruism. according to dictionary.com:
| Quote: | l·tru·ism
[al-troo-iz-uhm] Show IPA
noun
1. the principle or practice of unselfish concern for or devotion to the welfare of others ( opposed to egoism ).
2. Animal Behavior . behavior by an animal that may be to its disadvantage but that benefits others of its kind, as a warning cry that reveals the location of the caller to a predator.
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and egoism:
| Quote: | 1. the habit of valuing everything only in reference to one's personal interest; selfishness ( opposed to altruism ).
2. egotism or conceit.
3. Ethics. the view that morality ultimately rests on self-interest. |
yes, i know, you are holding to "psychological egoism" - but again, that assumes everything you do is a product of conscious thought and evaluation of the benefits - and it just isn't.
personally, i think we should go with the biological definition - anything that you do that you don't expect to get laid for is altruistic.
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Monkey Mcdermott
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 2719
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Confuzledish wrote: | | Is it just me, but are the 'Patriarchy Blockers' more like blinders than anything else? They make the wearer read what they want to read, and not what's actually there. 'Nique has become a walking post board for feminism, and not a vibrant person with personality. If anything she is more of an object now than she was back in the day. |
It isn't just you.
It's you and most of the other douchenozzles who rolled in here complaining about the feminist arc.
Which is to say...no one who matters.
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bitflipper
Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 728
Location: Here and Now
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mouse wrote: | | personally, i think we should go with the biological definition - anything that you do that you don't expect to get laid for is altruistic. |
Nice! Almost Adlerian in its simplicity; I like that!
I hesitate to ask, but how does this allow for the motives of simple and capital greed ("simple" meaning "I do what I do to directly gain a material good," and "capital" meaning "I do what I do to gain the means of trade")?
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I am only a somewhat arbitrary sequence of raised and lowered voltages to which your mind insists upon assigning meaning |
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ktern
Joined: 02 Jul 2007
Posts: 894
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| Posted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Leohan wrote: | | ktern: Nope. It's YOUR counterargument. Look for the data and I will choose if I need to acknowledge it. |
it happens to not be a counterargument. it's pretty clearly a logical extension of what you've been saying, and as such that's more or less the kind of data you need to back your claims up |
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mouse
Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 15450
Location: under the bed
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:26 am Post subject: |
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| bitflipper wrote: | | mouse wrote: | | personally, i think we should go with the biological definition - anything that you do that you don't expect to get laid for is altruistic. |
Nice! Almost Adlerian in its simplicity; I like that!
I hesitate to ask, but how does this allow for the motives of simple and capital greed ("simple" meaning "I do what I do to directly gain a material good," and "capital" meaning "I do what I do to gain the means of trade")? |
well, people always figure your chances of getting laid are better if you have lots of money (if nothing else because you can pay for a prostitute) - so anything that is done to accumulate money or material goods is done ultimately to get laid.
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Mindslicer
Joined: 04 Sep 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: North of the People's Republic of Massachusetts
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:20 am Post subject: |
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| mouse wrote: | | this morning boycat spent about two minutes attacking a completely empty spot on the floor, then he ran around the house and ended up behind the dryer (after getting briefly hung up on the ironing board). i have no idea what _possible_ benefit he thinks this has, but he does it all the time. i mean, sometimes he even runs into walls and things doing it, and that's gotta hurt. |
There have been several times that I'll spend about five minutes sitting in a chair riding up a mountain, then I slide all over the place from the top to the bottom of the mountain with a composite board strapped to both feet, sometimes falling down several times along the way. I even fractured my ankle once doing it, and that definitely hurt. Once I got better, I went back for more. |
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Alpha Aim
Joined: 19 Nov 2012
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:40 am Post subject: |
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No matter how many times I look at those glasses, I just can't figure them out.
What are they?
Are they sunglasses? do they have an extra layer?
Could someone explain?
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Let the music resonate with your soul... |
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MerchManDan
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1448
Location: Somewhere else.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 2:55 am Post subject: |
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| Alpha Aim wrote: | | Could someone explain? |
No, because it doesn't matter.
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| mouse wrote: | almost a shame to waste dennis' talent on him.
except it's always a pleasure to see a good dennis insult. |
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bitflipper
Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Posts: 728
Location: Here and Now
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:00 am Post subject: |
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| Alpha Aim wrote: | No matter how many times I look at those glasses, I just can't figure them out.
What are they? |
They're a metaphor; don't sweat their technical construction too much.
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I am only a somewhat arbitrary sequence of raised and lowered voltages to which your mind insists upon assigning meaning |
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diagram12345
Joined: 08 Jul 2012
Posts: 59
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:10 am Post subject: |
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| StateOfBedlam wrote: | | Smooshie wrote: | | diagram12345 wrote: | | When we help people, it's because we benefit from it in some way, even if it's the satisfaction and joy from helping someone. |
So, is there no such thing as altruism? |
"[...] even if it's the satisfaction and joy from helping someone."
That is altruism, isn't it?
| Leohan wrote: | Interesting topic! Count me in!
In my opinion? No. Altruism is not a thing. Every action that any living being ever attempts is because said living is expecting a result that will prove beneficial to their environment. This can be the immediate environment (I have to work because I will receive my pay and I'll be able to buy an I-Phone) a more distant environment (I have to recycle because if I don't then any moment now the whole World will be a dumpster) or any layer in between. That does include helping other people. You do it because you will feel better with yourself doing it, because you want those people to think better of you, because you want to tell someone else at some point and want that other person to think better of you or, in some cases, because you expect repayment from either an afterlife or karma.
Of course this is absolutely oversimplified, but that's my general perspective. Not a human thing either. Every single living being lives this way, unless perhaps you are mentally ill and your actions have no expected reaction at all. |
If you help someone as a consequence of your empathy for that someone, that isn't altruism?
"It wasn't altruism because you feel better when other people feel better," is a really bizarrely exclusive notion of what constitutes selflessness. There are clinical diagnoses for people who do not possess emotional empathy. In popular culture we usually call them psychopaths or sociopaths.
EDIT: Of course, that's my opinion, but I think this is ultimately an argument of semantics. My reaction is dependent on my notion of what altruism is. I think that's probably all we really disagree on, but I can't be certain. |
Yes, it's an argument of semantics. If you define as altruism as helping someone because you take pleasure in helping someone, then sure, people are altruistic.
What I'm trying to say is that people interact with each other because they meet each other's needs in some way. And now that Monique and Slick no longer meet each other's needs, they will no longer benefit from interacting, and thus will stop unless they start to mutually benefit from interacting again. |
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fritterdonut
Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 552
Location: Some shitty city somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:02 am Post subject: |
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Precalculating all moves to ensure benefit is the realm of machines, in which a perfectly rational input produces a perfectly rational output.
Humans are, in comparison, amazingly unstable and irrational. We also have terrible perception of the future consequences of our actions.
And as mouse pointed out, outside the biological directives of eat, survive and reproduce, anything else we do could count as 'altruism'.
Although in all honesty, I am an egoist.
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Ask not what you can do for your country, ask what your country did to you |
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Adyon
Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 952
Location: Behind my Cintiq
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:18 am Post subject: |
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I found this pathetic sign-off particularly amusing
| LarsenSan wrote: | | OK, that's it. Between yesterday's strip (repeating a joke he already used not so long ago; heck, it was not even a good joke) and today's one (a direct attack to some users that were posting past strips) this webcomic has died to me. From today I'll stick with Giselle Lagace's webcomics. So, goodbye Sinfest, you are no longer the partner I once knew. Goodbye Tat, I hope you don't fall anymore coz you'll be underground. And goodbye to a couple of single-minded-idiots I've met in these forums; you know who I'm talking about. |
...because I've looked at the Giselle strips' forums...and you know what I see? Shit tons of butt-hurt over how much they hate "such and such character" or another or the story line. Annoying trolls won't be missed on forums, nor will the authors (or should they) change their comics for said trolls. They have a plan, and people who like it read it. People like that like to think their insignificant opinion matters when they yell discontents, but ironically a great article on that subject was just linked the page before they posted that: http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-harsh-truths-that-will-make-you-better-person/
Also the altruism sparked conversation is very interesting, but I don't have the time to devote to getting into it, so carry on and I'll enjoy the read. 
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MerchManDan
Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 1448
Location: Somewhere else.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 4:40 am Post subject: |
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| lol wrote: | | Larsen is such an attention seeker. Who posts just to let everyone know you've stopped reading? |
Hey, it's important to release one's self-righteous disgust regularly. Keeping that stuff inside will kill you.
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| mouse wrote: | almost a shame to waste dennis' talent on him.
except it's always a pleasure to see a good dennis insult. |
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