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2013-02-20: Bring Back Old 'Nique
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StateOfBedlam



Joined: 07 Feb 2013
Posts: 44

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wrote:
KDX wrote:
Meh, 2 cents, there's a point where the comic stopped making legitimate points about the behavior of men and just crossed that line into misandry.

"Now it's Men are always wrong, all of the time, for every reason, aren't allow to want anything, and have to give everything into order to be "ok.""

Dude, what the hell are you even talking about? Where did the comic say ANY of that?


Or imply it in any way.
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LadySunami



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KXD, men are not always wrong. Women are not always right. In this case however, you are in fact wrong.

To throw in a semi related anecdote, one of my lab students today (I'm a TA) informed me she didn't want to work with a specific lab-mate ever again. Why was that? He had told her straight up to never correct him again, he would not listen to a female. Considering both I and the other TA in this section are female... I'm really hoping we don't have discipline problems this semester.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's some ballsy talk from a student, who are by nature often wrong.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:
He had told her straight up to never correct him again, he would not listen to a female. Considering both I and the other TA in this section are female... I'm really hoping we don't have discipline problems this semester.

Well, he really doesn't have to listen to either of you nor to his lab partner; failure is an option, right?

In fact, that might teach him something more valuable than anything detailed on the syllabus...
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah, i'd say give him the grade he earns. if he earns it by refusing to listen to what you, or his lab partner, tell him - well, he can't very well complain, can he?
As long as he can't do anything like accidentally blow up the lab or flood the place with poison gas, i shouldn't think there would be anything you would need to discipline him for. if he interrupts while you are lecturing, that goes into his grade.

Leohan wrote:

You think about everything you do.

so a couple of weeks ago i was driving down to the theatre. i have been to this place literally hundreds of times. i would have said i could make the drive in my sleep - but i suddenly found myself on the wrong freeway. if i think about everything i do, how did i do that?

seriously - people spend a lot of time without a thought in their head. or at least, no thought about what they are actually doing.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
so a couple of weeks ago i was driving down to the theatre. i have been to this place literally hundreds of times. i would have said i could make the drive in my sleep - but i suddenly found myself on the wrong freeway. if i think about everything i do, how did i do that?


you, my friend, have never seen the freeways in LA
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have, actually - it's one of the reasons i refuse to go there.

but if you've seen the freeways of san diego - you know it's rather a good trick to suddenly find yourself on the wrong one.

well, ok, unless you are downtown. which i wasn't.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Leohan wrote:

You think about everything you do.

so a couple of weeks ago i was driving down to the theatre. i have been to this place literally hundreds of times. i would have said i could make the drive in my sleep - but i suddenly found myself on the wrong freeway. if i think about everything i do, how did i do that?

seriously - people spend a lot of time without a thought in their head. or at least, no thought about what they are actually doing.


Well, there are several reasons why that could happen. The most obvious one would be being plain distracted. At some point you had to take a turn but you were also thinking about something that you considered more important. You can think about several things at once, but oftentimes we have inconvenient priorities that keep our attention, so your mind chose that thinking about that other thing was more important than realizing where to turn.

There's another possibility that I like. My father always tells me that a failed act is a manifestation of will. I don't think that it does always apply, but perhaps in a subconscious level you didn't want to go to the theatre all that much. Doesn't mean that you actually wanted to be wherever else you ended up, but sometimes our subconscious selves like to give us those subtle messages.

Another one, related to the first one: You were driving and plain forgot to take a turn somewhere. Happens to me lots of times. I like to walk a lot, I know the streets, but sometimes I go a couple more blocks than I should. I'm really forgetful so I tend to relate it to that.

Now, here's something important, and I just might not have been successful in explaining it. I may believe in personal reasons for all of our acts, but I also believe in the subconscious. I, personally, am mostly the kind to act at a conscious, rational level most of the time, but I don't expect the same from everyone.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

Another one, related to the first one: You were driving and plain forgot to take a turn somewhere. Happens to me lots of times. I like to walk a lot, I know the streets, but sometimes I go a couple more blocks than I should. I'm really forgetful so I tend to relate it to that.

Now, here's something important, and I just might not have been successful in explaining it. I may believe in personal reasons for all of our acts, but I also believe in the subconscious. I, personally, am mostly the kind to act at a conscious, rational level most of the time, but I don't expect the same from everyone.


if you are always thinking about your actions, then you would never be forgetful, because you would be thinking about where you were walking. i was, in point of fact, thinking - but not about my actions, which (at that point in time) were driving me to the theatre.

what i'm saying is, thoughts and actions are frequently in two different worlds. so suggesting that we are choosing our actions to be of benefit to use because at all points in time our thoughts are focused on our actions is just silly. you yourself have just stated that you don't always think about what you are doing, specifically in the case of your walking.

and also, what fritters said.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well ok let's say this if I was stating that the chance of forgetfulness doesn't exist my argument would be completely idiotic. You were still meaning to go to the theatre. You were just taking the wrong way because your mind, either occupied with something that you consider to be more important or confident that it could get to the theatre in autopilot, made you forget to go to the path towards the theatre.

With me it's exactly the same. Yes, I will be walking and all of sudden go "Wait, why did I take those three extra blocks?" and the answer is that I forgot to take the right way. What will never happen unless I get Alzheimer or something is me walking down the street for a while and all of sudden realizing that I have no real reason to be walking down the street.

I'll concede, though. Great argument. Got me thinking for a good while.
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LadySunami



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
yeah, i'd say give him the grade he earns. if he earns it by refusing to listen to what you, or his lab partner, tell him - well, he can't very well complain, can he?
As long as he can't do anything like accidentally blow up the lab or flood the place with poison gas, i shouldn't think there would be anything you would need to discipline him for. if he interrupts while you are lecturing, that goes into his grade.

As about half the chemistry faculty are female, and he's somehow made it this far (it's an upper division course), I'm guessing he knows better then to spout such bs in front of anyone in authority. He said this to a fellow student after all, not someone with control of his grade.

I'm more worried about how he'll treat his future lab partners, and any tendency he might have to mess around behind our backs. He won't be able to blow up the lab with our experimental line up, but he could definitely damage instrumentation or give himself (or others) serious chemical burns if he messes around.
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khan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It should be noted that there is really two kinds of action we can take... Active, conscious actions and inactive, unconscious ones. We are designed to think about our actions as little as possible... Some argue this is because we needed to be aware of our surroundings while gathering, I like to think it is to allow us to perform necessary but monotonous tasks without going mad.

Very few people can think of nothing. Emptying one's mind is something people spend significant effort to achieve, but allowing one's mind to wander is easy.

My (unrequested) view on altruism can be summed up as follows: sane people can be altruistic, and the world is a more wonderful place than most people give it credit. Individual lives can be made horrible by the actions of others, but most people will push on. I believe altruism is not only possible, but I think it is embedded in our genetics; our bodies (in normal people) condition us to be good.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Khan: Remember, I said every action that any living creature actively performs. Those are the ones that count.

Oh! And this is important!

Saying that people are not altruistic isn't saying that people are evil or incapable of good. It's saying that such 'good' is objective oriented. Most people have the emotional need to do good, but in the end of the day they do good deeds to feel like they are better people. At times (though, I admit, not always) I like to give street musicians a couple of coins for performing. They won't stop if I refuse to give them my change, but it feels appropriate, and if I don't do so I'm in fact indebted to them. They provided a service to me for free.

Does this rationalization make me a worse person? The fact that I'm not doing this to help them but to pay my debt? Well... Arguable. But the fact that I chose to do it must, at least, willing to try and be a good person because that's what I've been taught. I'm personally either a sociopath or too emotionally detached to tell the difference (no joke here) but I believe that the difference between my viewpoints and everyone else's is that I don't really value emotional favours that much. People still like to do good or make others happy, but that's to fulfil their own emotional satisfaction, not just because.
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khan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Khan: Remember, I said every action that any living creature actively performs. Those are the ones that count.

Oh! And this is important!

Saying that people are not altruistic isn't saying that people are evil or incapable of good. It's saying that such 'good' is objective oriented. Most people have the emotional need to do good, but in the end of the day they do good deeds to feel like they are better people. At times (though, I admit, not always) I like to give street musicians a couple of coins for performing. They won't stop if I refuse to give them my change, but it feels appropriate, and if I don't do so I'm in fact indebted to them. They provided a service to me for free.

Does this rationalization make me a worse person? The fact that I'm not doing this to help them but to pay my debt? Well... Arguable. But the fact that I chose to do it must, at least, willing to try and be a good person because that's what I've been taught. I'm personally either a sociopath or too emotionally detached to tell the difference (no joke here) but I believe that the difference between my viewpoints and everyone else's is that I don't really value emotional favours that much. People still like to do good or make others happy, but that's to fulfil their own emotional satisfaction, not just because.


I suppose I have issue with your premise then, since many acts of evil stem from acting without thought; I would even argue that the majority occur this way, simply acting without thinking. Thus, though it doesn't count by your standards, I think unconscious acts of evil are the very worst.

I am not sure that donating to street musicians qualifies as good... When I think of a good deed, I think of a selfless deed that isn't being 'begged' for... Giving money to someone who's occupation is begging isn't a good deed.

That said, knowing that normal people (not me, I receive no feedback) do good deeds because it makes them feel better I would say that there is no such thing as true altruism for normal people.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No. I don't give money to beggars. I give money for people that provide me with a service. And well I thought it was a clear example. I lose something and gain nothing in return save knowing that it was the right thing to do. If you say that it's not a real good deed... Well give me some better examples so we can discuss that I guess.

And I never said that you can't do good or evil unconsciously. Just that you can't actively do something without expecting something in return.
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