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2013-02-20: Bring Back Old 'Nique
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khan



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
No. I don't give money to beggars. I give money for people that provide me with a service. And well I thought it was a clear example. I lose something and gain nothing in return save knowing that it was the right thing to do. If you say that it's not a real good deed... Well give me some better examples so we can discuss that I guess.

And I never said that you can't do good or evil unconsciously. Just that you can't actively do something without expecting something in return.


You may not have studied enough history; begging IS a service, it offers false 'goodness', or false biological rewards. Street musicians are a bit different (I do give change, and as a Canadian, change is up to 2 bucks a piece), but they are still not 'needy innocents'. Helping them might be honourable, but it isn't good.

You want an example of active good for a sane person?? I stated that I do not believe such exists; why would you demand examples?

Yes, I am saying that the only true good person will have to be a sociopath. So I suppose I'm forced to admit there is no such thing as sane, conscious good deeds.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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Location: Behind my Cintiq

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Altruism really has very little specifically to do with good anyway, by definition. It is considered a virtue by society to be altruistic, and we deem people who appear altruistic "good", but that is not its core.

The core of altruism is a selfless giving of something of value to someone other than one's self. If the person doesn't seek a reward for giving something to someone else, that is altruism. This is arguably where the line comes for the philosophy of altruism, in that if the satisfaction from giving things counts against you being altruistic. I choose to believe it doesn't, as I think if your only reward is knowing you made someone happy, that can count as an altruistic action. Not quite true, but I like to think of it that way.

Truthfully we can only hope to have altruistic moments and actions. I know I feel good randomly helping someone that didn't expect it, for instance, but I could never qualify as an altruistic person.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1036

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:
begging IS a service, it offers false 'goodness', or false biological rewards. Street musicians are a bit different (I do give change, and as a Canadian, change is up to 2 bucks a piece), but they are still not 'needy innocents'. Helping them might be honourable, but it isn't good.


You just blew my mind. Letting you know.

Still kinda disagree at some point. Mostly, if you feel like doing something that benefits someone because it's honorable... Yeah, can't call it selfless and sure as hell can't call it altruistic. There's a reason behind it, but it's still a good deed.

But the viewing of begging as a service... Woah, man. I wouldn't have thought it, myself.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
you can't actively do something without expecting something in return.

This is untrue. I know this is untrue from direct apprehension. I do act without expecting something in return. Sometimes it is out of habit, sometimes it is out of convenience, sometimes it is because I am moved with pity.

Of course, I am well aware that relating my experiences isn't useful for argument - they are inherently subjective. I wouldn't even bring them up, except as a springboard to an important point, that you cannot argue the opposite, for exactly the same reason. You can never know why another person does what they do, and everything you've said so far has dodged around that central point.

No matter what someone offers up as an example of a selfless act, you will rationalize it away because of a benefit the act causes. You will dismiss intention and unfavourable cost/benefit ratio as irrelevant for no reason other than because you say so. There will never be a fact your philosophy isn't facile enough to incorporate. One might as well try to prove a solipsist wrong.
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khan



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
khan wrote:
begging IS a service, it offers false 'goodness', or false biological rewards. Street musicians are a bit different (I do give change, and as a Canadian, change is up to 2 bucks a piece), but they are still not 'needy innocents'. Helping them might be honourable, but it isn't good.


You just blew my mind. Letting you know.

Still kinda disagree at some point. Mostly, if you feel like doing something that benefits someone because it's honorable... Yeah, can't call it selfless and sure as hell can't call it altruistic. There's a reason behind it, but it's still a good deed.

But the viewing of begging as a service... Woah, man. I wouldn't have thought it, myself.


You never thought of it as a service? Well, I admit it is counterintuitive, but I stand by it.

I don't think being honourable is the same as being good; I believe people have a biological obligation to offer assistance that does not contradict the survivability of the being... We are bred so help our species survive. Humans were prey far longer than we have been predator. I see honour as acting for the benefit of the whole separate from altruism, doing good for payout, either physiological or sociological.
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khan



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Leohan wrote:
you can't actively do something without expecting something in return.

This is untrue. I know this is untrue from direct apprehension. I do act without expecting something in return. Sometimes it is out of habit, sometimes it is out of convenience, sometimes it is because I am moved with pity.

Of course, I am well aware that relating my experiences isn't useful for argument - they are inherently subjective. I wouldn't even bring them up, except as a springboard to an important point, that you cannot argue the opposite, for exactly the same reason. You can never know why another person does what they do, and everything you've said so far has dodged around that central point.

No matter what someone offers up as an example of a selfless act, you will rationalize it away because of a benefit the act causes. You will dismiss intention and unfavourable cost/benefit ratio as irrelevant for no reason other than because you say so. There will never be a fact your philosophy isn't facile enough to incorporate. One might as well try to prove a solipsist wrong.


Proving a solipsist wrong can be accomplished by punching them; the world wasn't affected, just them. Thus, they are not the world.

The issue you are avoiding is endorphins... Biological payout. Eh, maybe I have the wrong hormone, but altruism has a purely biological payout unless you are a sociopath. You don't need to be aware of it to be conditioned by it.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1036

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
No matter what someone offers up as an example of a selfless act, you will rationalize it away because of a benefit the act causes. You will dismiss intention and unfavourable cost/benefit ratio as irrelevant for no reason other than because you say so. There will never be a fact your philosophy isn't facile enough to incorporate. One might as well try to prove a solipsist wrong.


I believe that you are misunderstanding my objectives.

Why would I come to a forum where people quite obviously enjoy defending their moral standings far too much and then bring up my unpopular opinion if I didnt expect it to be questioned? I like counterarguments. They make me think. Right now khan opened my perspective on the act of giving change. I enjoy that. I want to have different opinions. Otherwise I'd just be preaching my views on ethics.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:
Proving a solipsist wrong can be accomplished by punching them; the world wasn't affected, just them. Thus, they are not the world.

This is stupid on many levels. The most important one is that by affecting them, you have, in fact, affected the world, and have therefore argued exactly nothing with respect to their philosophy.

khan wrote:
The issue you are avoiding is endorphins... Biological payout.

Sojobo wrote:
No matter what someone offers up as an example of a selfless act, you will rationalize it away because of a benefit the act causes. You will dismiss intention and unfavourable cost/benefit ratio as irrelevant for no reason other than because you say so.

*Yawns*
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
I believe that you are misunderstanding my objectives.

I don't believe my post relies on any particular understanding, so I am unclear why you think I misunderstand.

Sojobo wrote:
Why would I come to a forum where people quite obviously enjoy defending their moral standings far too much and then bring up my unpopular opinion if I didnt expect it to be questioned?

How should I know? In what way is this a response to me? I don't even know if your opinion is unpopular, and I don't really care. I'm talking about the argument. The argument is pointless, because there is no meaningful way to argue either side. One side will give examples, the other side will deny their validity. Rinse, repeat.

Look at what khan just said. He just made exactly the same argument I said you were going to make. It's not because he's an idiot, it's not because he's dishonest, it's because every argument against examples of altruism will boil down the the exact same thing. There will be no progress.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I understood that you believed that I wasn't open to opposing arguments. Sorry, my bad.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I sort of do mean that, but not in an insulting sense. I believe you are interested in reading opposing arguments. I believe you are arguing honestly, rather than just to "win". But if you do sincerely believe there is no such thing as altruism, I don't believe any argument will convince you otherwise, especially, as ironic as it sounds, in the midst of an argument about whether there is such a thing as altruism.
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khan



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
khan wrote:
Proving a solipsist wrong can be accomplished by punching them; the world wasn't affected, just them. Thus, they are not the world.

This is stupid on many levels. The most important one is that by affecting them, you have, in fact, affected the world, and have therefore argued exactly nothing with respect to their philosophy.

khan wrote:
The issue you are avoiding is endorphins... Biological payout.

Sojobo wrote:
No matter what someone offers up as an example of a selfless act, you will rationalize it away because of a benefit the act causes. You will dismiss intention and unfavourable cost/benefit ratio as irrelevant for no reason other than because you say so.

*Yawns*


A solipsist believes they are the be all end all of existence; harming them and showing them that the universe is unaffected would in fact prove that they are not the universe. I don't see how you could argue against something this self evident unless you have no clue what you are talking about.

Biology does not negate any example, just that of sane individuals. If you disagree, please offer an example or explanation, not just 'I disgree so you are wrong'.
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khan



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Well, I sort of do mean that, but not in an insulting sense. I believe you are interested in reading opposing arguments. I believe you are arguing honestly, rather than just to "win". But if you do sincerely believe there is no such thing as altruism, I don't believe any argument will convince you otherwise, especially, as ironic as it sounds, in the midst of an argument about whether there is such a thing as altruism.


Maybe there is no argument in disagreement because it is simply reality that altruism is an ideal left to the mentally ill or deficient? Nah, that would be crazy.
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:
A solipsist believes they are the be all end all of existence; harming them and showing them that the universe is unaffected would in fact prove that they are not the universe.

In harming them, you have affected the universe. You cannot show them the universe is unaffected, because you have affected the universe by harming them. I cannot understand how this isn't clear already.

khan wrote:
I don't see how you could argue against something this self evident unless you have no clue what you are talking about.

Utterly backwards.

khan wrote:
Biology does not negate any example, just that of sane individuals. If you disagree, please offer an example or explanation, not just 'I disgree so you are wrong'.

You quoted me explaining already. Then I quoted the specific bit of my post that was explaining. You can't read my explanation and then tell me I'm not explaining. Except you just did, didn't you? That's very strange. I guess I'll . . . repeat myself without quoting?

You are claiming that [sane] altruistic acts aren't altruistic because of a side-benefit the act causes, specifically your "biological" benefit. That ignores the intention of the act, for no good reason. That also ignores the overall cost-benefit of the act, for no good reason.
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diagram12345



Joined: 08 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...

Last edited by diagram12345 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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