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2013-02-24: Fierce mode
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
This is not quite ready to publish, but it is on a rather dull subject, so it will probably still be accepted into a top journal in six to ten months.


BWAHahahahahahahahaha!!! HR, explained, the joke! In a manner that actually manages to be as funny--if not funnier--than the joke itself!
\me wipes tears from my eyes.
Kudos, HR, kudos!
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Rothide



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Rothide wrote:
would you do the same if someone was playing "devil's advocate" for feminism against feminist haters?

It wouldn't be devils advocate because I believe about what I argue.


I meant someone who wasn't a feminist being devil's advocate for feminism... or is that a bit to hard to comprehend someone not being a feminist but not hating on feminism?
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vector010



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
It was heavily implied. I didn't catch the joke though, so there is that.

I do think you weren't looking at the same strip as me if you honestly think DevCorp was just -informing- them.


Well, there were a few pages of discussion that eventually led to my comment. You might see what led up to the comment by reading through the last couple pages. Razz

Without the context of the previous portions of the discussion leading to it, I suppose I could see where you were coming from.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People don't really do that. The ones that argue for feminism do it because it's something they believe in, at least in these forums.

We've had a lot of dudebros roll in to argue against it though. Maybe in some bizarro part of the internet people argue for feminism that don't actually believe it, but I sure as hell haven't seen it.

And anyway, it's still pretty pointless to argue something you don't even believe in. I wouldn't feel supported by someone who really believes men are better than women -pretending- to think otherwise for the sake of arguing. He'd still be a dudebro.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:
Well, there were a few pages of discussion that eventually led to my comment. You might see what led up to the comment by reading through the last couple pages. Razz

Without the context of the previous portions of the discussion leading to it, I suppose I could see where you were coming from.

Yeah sorry about that, that was my bad. I looked through your other posts in the meantime, I shoulda done that first.
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
People don't really do that. The ones that argue for feminism do it because it's something they believe in, at least in these forums.

We've had a lot of dudebros roll in to argue against it though. Maybe in some bizarro part of the internet people argue for feminism that don't actually believe it, but I sure as hell haven't seen it.

And anyway, it's still pretty pointless to argue something you don't even believe in.

Self-righteous pricks on tumblr do that a lot simply for the sake of being right and feeling like they're better than other folks. They're honestly worse than strawmen. Even the Bible (of all books) has a bit (supposedly from the mouth of Jesus, no less) about folks pretending to be holy and acting condescending towards those less pious than them simply for the public esteem and feel-good vibes that come with being better or "more right" than someone else.
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vector010



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
People don't really do that. The ones that argue for feminism do it because it's something they believe in, at least in these forums.

We've had a lot of dudebros roll in to argue against it though. Maybe in some bizarro part of the internet people argue for feminism that don't actually believe it, but I sure as hell haven't seen it.

And anyway, it's still pretty pointless to argue something you don't even believe in. I wouldn't feel supported by someone who really believes men are better than women -pretending- to think otherwise for the sake of arguing. He'd still be a dudebro.


Actually, I play devil's advocate a lot in discussions. Of course, I don't think it means what you think (or at least imply) it means.

The first part of the Wikipedia article on the subject pretty much sums up why I do this.

Wikipedia wrote:
In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, for the sake of debate. In taking this position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position.

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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Playing devil's advocate on the forums is a surefire way to piss off just about everybody, just a warning.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Self-righteous pricks on tumblr do that a lot simply for the sake of being right and feeling like they're better than other folks. They're honestly worse than strawmen. Even the Bible (of all books) has a bit (supposedly from the mouth of Jesus, no less) about folks pretending to be holy and acting condescending towards those less pious than them simply for the public esteem and feel-good vibes that come with being better or "more right" than someone else.

Ugh, gross. I haven't encountered it myself, but I don't doubt it.

vector010: You've totally missed my original point, then. It goes from 'encouraging discourse and critical thinking' to 'silencing people that are trying to point out a problem by arguing that there isn't one'. There is a power dynamic that your little wiki blurb is totally ignoring when I say I hate devils advocate in relation to social issues.

It's belittling and frustrating as hell. It ends up treating an issue I care deeply about like it's some sort of game.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that Samsally's point is: the Advocatus Diaboli serves best when what is being considered is a proposition where no-one actually believes the Advocate's opposition. Social issues, however, are highlighted by the fact that some people actually behave as if they do believe what the Advocate is propounding, and so the Advocate becomes the enemy, not the refiner.
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Zhuinden



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:
Xanthë wrote:
Leohan,
But marginalised by whom? Feminism is interested in solving those problems, and a rising tide lifts all boats. To the degree that feminism is against sexism, there isn’t a push for some perverse form of gender equality that would suggest more men be raped to equalise the number of rapes suffered by men and women, or some similarly absurd solution which would be an example of a zero sum game. Zero sum game arguments that get levelled at feminism are sometimes bizarre: no one in their right mind would suggest we need more domestic violence against men to counterbalance a reduction of domestic violence against women – feminists want less domestic violence against both women and men, yet the standard line of argument seems to be that feminism is only interested in improving outcomes for women.


I just saw this after I posted, and I want to say YAY! to your particular brand of feminism. Unfortunately, my personal experience with feminism and feminist has been vastly different from your view. Save for a very small few, my experience has been that feminists care only about women's issues and "f#$k men" because "men are evil." I've been publicly berated and yelled at for holding a door for a woman on more than one occasion, even though as a matter of courtesy I try to hold the door for EVERYONE. Also, when I finally got around to admitting that I was in an abusive relationship at one point (she would come home high and start punching me for no reason at all) the feminists who heard would either begin to lecture me about the problems women face with domestic abuse, or on a couple of really extreme occasions tell me that I was not abused in the situation because I am a man. Those are just a couple examples of my personal experiences, and I understand it isn't representative of the whole of feminists and feminism, but it has been such a prevalent theme of my experiences with feminism and feminists in my life that the terms have ended up holding a negative meaning for me personally. Someone talking about beliefs such as what you posted would, to me, be something like gender equality advocates or something. Just because my experiences have led to the words feminism and feminist leaving a bad taste in my mouth.

....wow. People can be quite obsessed with their self-righteous bullshit. I can barely understand how they can state these things and don't feel that they're either being hypocrites or idiots.

Quote:
Blah, stupid stuff. I've never understood why we can't just treat each other equally. You know, as humans and all that.

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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
There is a power dynamic that your little wiki blurb is totally ignoring when I say I hate devils advocate in relation to social issues.

It's belittling and frustrating as hell. It ends up treating an issue I care deeply about like it's some sort of game.

Yeah, you get used to it. You kind of have to bury personal feelings in an argument to avoid conservative America's favorite argument tactic, the appeal to emotion. It's a mistake lots of kids make in debate class.

You're allowed to be upset at the implications of views opposite to your own, but even if it affects you personally (someone argues for execution, while your sibling was innocent and given a lethal injection or something), you have to fight through that to see what the other person's saying. There's a big difference between "there's a few holes in your argument" or "I don't understand what you're saying because here is how I understand things" and a personal attack.

At the end of the day, all issues can be debated in such a manner, no matter how important they are.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
....wow. People can be quite obsessed with their self-righteous bullshit.

Are you trying to be ironic? Because that sure as hell is ironic.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
Samsally wrote:
There is a power dynamic that your little wiki blurb is totally ignoring when I say I hate devils advocate in relation to social issues.

It's belittling and frustrating as hell. It ends up treating an issue I care deeply about like it's some sort of game.

Yeah, you get used to it. You kind of have to bury personal feelings in an argument to avoid conservative America's favorite argument tactic, the appeal to emotion. It's a mistake lots of kids make in debate class.

You're allowed to be upset at the implications of views opposite to your own, but even if it affects you personally (someone argues for execution, while your sibling was innocent and given a lethal injection or something), you have to fight through that to see what the other person's saying. There's a big difference between "there's a few holes in your argument" or "I don't understand what you're saying because here is how I understand things" and a personal attack.

At the end of the day, all issues can be debated in such a manner, no matter how important they are.

I think it's wrong that the media abuses and sensationalizes things in a manipulative and deceiving way. I do NOT think the solution is to stop caring, or stop expressing emotions.

Interestingly, this swings back to feminism in how emotions are often linked to femininity. They are so often dismissed as unimportant or even detrimental.
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Black Kitty



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
vector010: You've totally missed my original point, then. It goes from 'encouraging discourse and critical thinking' to 'silencing people that are trying to point out a problem by arguing that there isn't one'. There is a power dynamic that your little wiki blurb is totally ignoring when I say I hate devils advocate in relation to social issues.

It's belittling and frustrating as hell. It ends up treating an issue I care deeply about like it's some sort of game.


I just had a confrontation with my male friend about this today. The thing is, there's already so much opposition on this issue. We live through the counter-points every day. So to have them thrown in our faces in a discussion where we're trying to problem solve and make progress is mostly just frustrating.
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