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2013-02-24: Fierce mode
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6375

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
I think that Samsally's point is: the Advocatus Diaboli serves best when what is being considered is a proposition where no-one actually believes the Advocate's opposition. Social issues, however, are highlighted by the fact that some people actually behave as if they do believe what the Advocate is propounding, and so the Advocate becomes the enemy, not the refiner.

Black Kitty wrote:
I just had a confrontation with my male friend about this today. The thing is, there's already so much opposition on this issue. We live through the counter-points every day. So to have them thrown in our faces in a discussion where we're trying to problem solve and make progress is mostly just frustrating.

Yes, thank you both.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:

I think it's wrong that the media abuses and sensationalizes things in a manipulative and deceiving way. I do NOT think the solution is to stop caring, or stop expressing emotions.

Interestingly, this swings back to feminism in how emotions are often linked to femininity. They are so often dismissed as unimportant or even detrimental.

I didn't say the solution was to stop caring. You just can't take arguments personally.

I do not believe that emotions are feminine, but I do not think "I am offended" is a legitimate response in an argument. It might be if you append "because".

And hey, welcome to the world. You're free to help change the way the media presents things, but sensationalism, deception, and manipulation seem to work best when the goal is getting people interested in the news. After all, effective communicators strike a personal chord with their listeners...
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vector010



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Smooshie wrote:
Self-righteous pricks on tumblr do that a lot simply for the sake of being right and feeling like they're better than other folks. They're honestly worse than strawmen. Even the Bible (of all books) has a bit (supposedly from the mouth of Jesus, no less) about folks pretending to be holy and acting condescending towards those less pious than them simply for the public esteem and feel-good vibes that come with being better or "more right" than someone else.

Ugh, gross. I haven't encountered it myself, but I don't doubt it.

vector010: You've totally missed my original point, then. It goes from 'encouraging discourse and critical thinking' to 'silencing people that are trying to point out a problem by arguing that there isn't one'. There is a power dynamic that your little wiki blurb is totally ignoring when I say I hate devils advocate in relation to social issues.

It's belittling and frustrating as hell. It ends up treating an issue I care deeply about like it's some sort of game.


Oh, well in those situations I totally agree with you. At least to an extent... I mean, it gets really touchy with social issues. We've already demonstrated that here. Because yeah, there are those asshats that try to silence people trying to point out a problem by saying there isn't one. The existence of those people puts the people who are pointing out the problem on the defensive. And that in turn often makes those people ignore or bash on others who come by and try to point out a legitimate flaw in their argument, not to silence them, but in an attempt to be helpful, informative, and maybe help them strengthen their argument by correcting the flaw. It's all them emotion things that get in the way a lot of the time. Social issues be emotionally heated and all that. But again, yeah... Trying to silence people who bring up a legitimate problem by claiming there isn't one is plain asshattery, no question.

By the way, my comment on "I don't think it means what you think it means" was really meant to say that my usage is different from yours. The line is a pop-culture reference, and was meant to be kinda joking. I saw your original point though. And, there are certain aspects of feminism (at least the variety I've unfortunately been heavily exposed to in the past) that I'm sure I might argue from a perspective of devil's advocate where I don't believe in them. Not because I believe men are better than women, but because I don't believe some things like "You are a man, so your opinion on feminism doesn't matter." Although, that specific example would be used more sardonically by me. I can't think of any other examples off the top of my head because I try as hard as I can not to think of that particular brand of feminism since it just tends to make me upset (Note: I'm not saying all feminism, just the particular brand that I touched on in one of my previous posts).
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

People who begin an argument with "I'm just arguing devils advocate here..." can usually get away with it.


People who provoke a heated argument that lasts for an interminable time and then when cornered go "HURRRRRR just playin devils advocate" are fuckspigots, who wouldn't be worth crossing the street to piss on if they were on fire.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
I didn't say the solution was to stop caring. You just can't take arguments personally.

I do not believe that emotions are feminine, but I do not think "I am offended" is a legitimate response in an argument. It might be if you append "because".

And hey, welcome to the world. You're free to help change the way the media presents things, but sensationalism, deception, and manipulation seem to work best when the goal is getting people interested in the news. After all, effective communicators strike a personal chord with their listeners...

I didn't mean to say emotions are inherently feminine, just that they keep getting branded as such and dismissed because of it and that I think that's bad.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
People who begin an argument with "I'm just arguing devils advocate here..." can usually get away with it.


People who provoke a heated argument that lasts for an interminable time and then when cornered go "HURRRRRR just playin devils advocate" are fuckspigots, who wouldn't be worth crossing the street to piss on if they were on fire.

buffering something with "I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but..." followed by something upsetting is, to me, eerily similar to "I'm not racist, but..." followed by something upsetting.

The real solution here is to stop getting so gosh-darned mad all the time. Right or wrong, I get upset when I see people react differently to those who claim to be devil's advocates outright than they do when someone just makes a controversial statement otherwise.

However, I do agree that people who hide behind a "lol just trolling/being devil's advocate" defense when they are cornered are, as you say, fuckspigots.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
bitflipper wrote:
I think that Samsally's point is: the Advocatus Diaboli serves best when what is being considered is a proposition where no-one actually believes the Advocate's opposition. Social issues, however, are highlighted by the fact that some people actually behave as if they do believe what the Advocate is propounding, and so the Advocate becomes the enemy, not the refiner.

Black Kitty wrote:
I just had a confrontation with my male friend about this today. The thing is, there's already so much opposition on this issue. We live through the counter-points every day. So to have them thrown in our faces in a discussion where we're trying to problem solve and make progress is mostly just frustrating.

Yes, thank you both.


plus there's another dynamic at work. if you bounce over to the other side of the argument over some social issue just for the sake of fun or experimenting in principles or something, then you're trivializing the emotional import of that principle the other person holds. because bouncing over to play devil's advocate contains the assumption that it's of no more importance than whether you choose the black pieces or the white pieces on the chess board. which is a pretty good way to piss someone off.
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Black Kitty



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
I didn't say the solution was to stop caring. You just can't take arguments personally.


But how can we not take this personally, when it is literally an argument about our persons? How can the world possibly ask us to separate ourselves from the importance this issue holds for us? Stripping it of it's emotional impact cheapens the significance of the issue.

Quote:
I do not believe that emotions are feminine,


Of course, everybody has emotions. But men are socially pressured from the most early age to stifle them, and as a result, showing emotion has been associated with the feminine. Bogus? Yes. True? Unfortunately.

Quote:
but I do not think "I am offended" is a legitimate response in an argument. It might be if you append "because".


Funny, this calls back to another discussion I had earlier today about body acceptance and nudity. Westboro Baptist Church marches around with "GOD HATES FAGS" emblazoned all over themselves, but I can't live my life the way I want to because my bare body might offend some Puritan's sensibilities? Bogus? Yes. But "I am offended" has been accepted as a legitimate reason for suppression. I agree - that argument should not work. But I'd like to ask for that sentiment to be applied evenly across the board.

Quote:
And hey, welcome to the world. You're free to help change the way the media presents things, but sensationalism, deception, and manipulation seem to work best when the goal is getting people interested in the news. After all, effective communicators strike a personal chord with their listeners...


Like I've said - everything is propaganda. It's why I went into art instead of politics. Join the media, instead of getting my hands tied in the government.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:


plus there's another dynamic at work. if you bounce over to the other side of the argument over some social issue just for the sake of fun or experimenting in principles or something, then you're trivializing the emotional import of that principle the other person holds. because bouncing over to play devil's advocate contains the assumption that it's of no more importance than whether you choose the black pieces or the white pieces on the chess board. which is a pretty good way to piss someone off.

Is there something wrong with that? Do you not think that there are misogynists who seriously believe feminism is a direct personal attack on them/their manhood? I think having a stance in general is what really ought to upset people. They are, after all, the ones who believe that something of emotional import is not just trivial, but wrong.

Hopefully you see the silliness in arguing that something makes people upset shouldn't exist. If not, well... A good devil's advocate shouldn't ever be surprised that people are upset Razz
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Black Kitty



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
plus there's another dynamic at work. if you bounce over to the other side of the argument over some social issue just for the sake of fun or experimenting in principles or something, then you're trivializing the emotional import of that principle the other person holds. because bouncing over to play devil's advocate contains the assumption that it's of no more importance than whether you choose the black pieces or the white pieces on the chess board. which is a pretty good way to piss someone off.


Yes, exactly, thank you thank you thank you.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aaaaaaaaaaaaaand smooshie totally missed my point
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Smooshie



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Kitty wrote:
Smooshie wrote:
I didn't say the solution was to stop caring. You just can't take arguments personally.


But how can we not take this personally, when it is literally an argument about our persons? How can the world possibly ask us to separate ourselves from the importance this issue holds for us? Stripping it of it's emotional impact cheapens the significance of the issue.


Perhaps I wasn't clear. You're allowed to have feelings on an issue. Objectivity is impossible, and of course we're going to see people protesting simply because they're upset and find themselves unable to articulate why, but if you find yourself engaging in an argument, you'd better be using reason. This isn't the after-dinner Sharing of Feelings from The Giver, it's a time to keep a level head.

This isn't about emotional impact, it's about responding negatively. A good teacher won't yell at a student for getting a question wrong. Razz

ShadowCell wrote:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaand smooshie totally missed my point

Sad
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Black Kitty



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smooshie wrote:
This isn't about emotional impact, it's about responding negatively. A good teacher won't yell at a student for getting a question wrong. Razz


I see what you mean, but I don't think I can do that given the nature of the opposition. A good teacher won't yell at a student for getting a question wrong, but she might get upset when they shit in her lunch box.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Kitty wrote:
Smooshie wrote:
This isn't about emotional impact, it's about responding negatively. A good teacher won't yell at a student for getting a question wrong. Razz


I see what you mean, but I don't think I can do that given the nature of the opposition. A good teacher won't yell at a student for getting a question wrong, but she might get upset when they shit in her lunch box.

So is vitriol supposed to be some sort of preventative measure? Because that's a really upsetting notion.
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LadySunami



Joined: 04 May 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Xanthë wrote:
...Feminism is interested in solving those problems, and a rising tide lifts all boats. To the degree that feminism is against sexism, there isn’t a push for some perverse form of gender equality that would suggest more men be raped to equalise the number of rapes suffered by men and women, or some similarly absurd solution which would be an example of a zero sum game...

The rest of your post was very valuable as well but I don't like to make overly long quotes.

Yeah. I know that feminism is interested in this. Therefore I claim that the idea of "There is no such thing as female privilege" is not exactly evil or ill intentioned. I believe that it's just misguided and biased.

And I'm not really talking about the female/male rape/trafficking/murder/etc ratio. I mean that if the idea of male privilege is to be taken seriously, the obvious, undeniable counterpart should be acknowledged.

I agree with you that men's issues should be taken just as seriously as women's issues if we are to continue to progress towards true equality. The abandonment of men in some of the more vocal portions of the feminist movement (that I am aware of) really does bother me.

I think this is why I'm more inclined to be vocal on the issue of lgbt rights. It seems like where the feminist movement currently comes up short, the lgbt movement takes up the torch. What better way to prove that sex is only a small portion of any individual's being then to prove that men and women really can play whatever role they like in love or family life as well as in politics or the work place. I believe allowing same sex marriage is a wonderful way to prove men can be great fathers (and thus should not be overlooked in custody battles, mocked for being stay at home dads, etc.)!

I still consider myself a feminist though, since I'm unwilling to abandon the movement. If all reasonable feminists leave (aka, refuse to admit they're feminists), only the crazies will be left!
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