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When is hate okay?
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 141
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:03 pm    Post subject: When is hate okay? Reply with quote

When is using hateful/prejudiced, derogatory, and/or pejorative (as a whole) language in an argument with someone (barring, of course, discussions about said language) justified? When does someone deserve a barrage of words intended to hurt or offend? Think very carefully about your answer.


Rules:
1) If your argument can be reduced to "because the other party is being hurtful or offensive," or "because I was mad at that person," or "because the other person used those words, too," you have been using schoolyard reasoning to justify your self-righteous rants, and thus need to re-examine how you treat others. Laughing

I'm seriously very interested in hearing what you have to say. These past few days, I've become a lot more receptive to progressive philosophies and social movements, and I want to probe deeper. You aren't the biggest or best sample of feminists/equalists/what have you (statistically, at the very least) , but you're very interesting people with very interesting things to say. <3
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you're honest enough to admit you don't care about:
a) making the target of your hate (or those witnessing your hate) suffer adverse effects from your hate
b) you're willing to accept whatever consequences come with being hateful towards others
c) you are willing to have yourself become the target of hate in return

Satisfy all three conditions, and you're free to hate away. It's part of taking the good with the bad, in particular when it comes to free speech.

Like the sexist dudebro assholes in the sinfest sub-forum who ironically whine about feminists themes and how the comic sucks now?

I could only answer them memetically:


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Last edited by Darqcyde on Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 141
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think what you're saying is reasonable enough with those last two conditions tacked on, but perhaps I don't fully understand how it works in practice.

By your reasoning, it is acceptable for hate groups like the Westboro Baptist Church and the Klan to exist and say and do what they do now. That's fine, I suppose. But what about groups that are a bit more quiet about their hatred? Quiet hatred is easier to sell to people (see male rights activists and the ease with which a man can become a bitter misogynist). How about instances where the hateful language has led to shaping politics? Racism is institutionalized, but it's okay because you don't care if the targets of your hate suffer adverse effects. Perhaps that's a bit of a stretch.

How about the tragedy of the commons? What happens if everyone does this? If not everyone can do this, what makes qualified to be hateful given your parameters?
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Thinking someone has the right to think something and claiming that they are right in thinking something are two very different things.

You have a right to be greedy, this doesn't make it a right way to behave. As I've already said in the very first part, "you have to be honest enough to admit". Those who are "hating quietly" don't even meet the that prerequisite.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
Posts: 141
Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
You're not understanding what I'm saying.

Thinking someone has the right to think something and claiming that they are right in thinking something are two very different things.

You have a right to be greedy, this doesn't make it a right way to behave. As I've already said in the very first part, "you have to be honest enough to admit". Those who are "hating quietly" don't even meet the that prerequisite.

Are you so sure? I didn't say they denied it, but rather that they weren't vocal about it.

Besides, how is any of that justified? That was the question I asked (twice in a row, actually) in my first post.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How are they not?

I already answered, fairly succinctly:
Quote:
When you're honest enough to admit you don't care about:
a) making the target of your hate (or those witnessing your hate) suffer adverse effects from your hate
b) you'r willing to accept whatever consequences come with being hateful towards others
c) you are willing to have yourself become the target of hate in return

Satisfy all three conditions, and you're free to hate away.


You haven't examined what hate is or why people feel the need to express it.

Go look into those then get back to this.

If you can't understand and EXPLAIN why it is not ok to not hate, then you can't begin to talk about why it could possibly be ok to hate. Also, you might want to read up on "punitive justice" while you're at it.

Actually, before all that you need to first DEFINE HATE. I have my own definition which is: caring about someone strongly and wanting negative things to happen to them.

Hate requires a certain amount of participatory activeness and knowledge of the object of said hate, albeit that knowledge may not always be accurate or correct. Otherwise, you start getting into a lot of things that are close to hate, but not really. If you truly hate someone, it's not that you just don't like them or are angry at them. Before you start asking these bigger questions, you need to first have a deeper knowledge and understanding of what hate is.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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Location: NYC

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Define hate? But I already did.
Quote:
using hateful/prejudiced, derogatory, and/or pejorative (as a whole) language

...
intended to hurt or offend


You answered "when" and not "how" they are justified. I have trouble believing that disregard for consequences is a very good justification for hate. It is, however, an opportune frame of mind for hate.

I do not care why people feel the need to express it in this instance; it's not my place to say, but rather yours if you are going to explain your reasoning. Everyone's got their own worldview, too, so it's a lot more interesting to hear people make a case for something based on their own beliefs than responding to the beliefs of a topic starter. Furthermore, your insistence upon me looking concepts and definitions up (what hate is, how it is expressed, punitive justice) troubles me. If these things take time to research, then why don't you post sources? If what I read on a topic on my own is less in-depth than what you have read, I run the risk of still being less informed than you on the same subject because my research was incidentally less informative. If these things do not take much time to research, why not explain them yourself? I am asking these things not because I want to be petty, but because I am interested in what you have to say, but you have handed me a seemingly only tangentially-related answer and terms to look up.
And what's wrong with asking big questions when you only have a limited understanding of something? Those questions can be guided and narrowed through an exploration of the big question in order to obtain a greater understanding of that thing,

I am no expert on human behavior or hate, but I have my own opinions about those things and punitive justice. I do not believe in an eye for an eye, except in extreme cases (serial killers come to mind). How is a verbal response justice? I get the impression that telling someone off in such a manner gives one a sense of self-righteousness and accomplishment, but is that really justice? Tell me more.

Hate speech is hate speech is hate speech. I don't think you have to lie awake in bed every night fuming about feminism in order to say hateful things about feminists, nor do I think you have to think about how much you hate someone all day in order to use a racial slur or perhaps some sort of general pejorative in an argument with them. I think your definition of hate is a more classical definition of hate, but that's not really what I asked in the first post or what I'm looking for. My first two sentences outline it clearly to me, but perhaps not so much to you. If that is the case, sorry. I just don't see how your conditions justify anything other than freedom of speech. Given your conditions, you can hate, but I'm not sure you can say you ought to. In other words, you haven't said it is necessarily the right thing to do.


Quote:
Hate requires a certain amount of participatory activeness and knowledge of the object of said hate, albeit that knowledge may not always be accurate or correct.

All of that being said, I agree with this.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your question was when, now how, look at the thread title. If you are going to bring up something for debate or discussion, and specifically if that something is a term with broad and differing meanings, it is up to you to define it.

Also, I'm not really the person you want to be talking to if you want a moral stance on hate.

Hate is an emotion, a feeling. You can tell someone not to be sad, but given the right circumstances, they will be sad. Same with joy, love, anger, sorry guilt, fear, on and on and on. Hate is no different. You can't simply tell someone "Hate is wrong", you can show them the flaws in their reasoning, you can make them aware of facts they were ignorant of, but in the end you can't make a person not hate or never feel hatred. You can try to educate them so they can more readily deal with things, but in the end, a person is going to feel what they are going to feel. Also, as an emotion, it's pretty much always going to have a degree of irrationality towards it.

I've thought of something else too: you need to understand empathy before you can understand the hate of another, or for that matter, any emotion anyone else feels or the fact that the way another person experiences emotions might be different from your own.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3316

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To answer the question at the top of the title.

When people make hand wringy passive aggressive posts about how mean people are to a bunch of sexist assholes who shit all over the forum, it's fully justified.

Edit: but to address some of your post.

I'm not a fucking professor of gender studies, you aren't paying me as though i were, and you can do your own damn research

Devils advocates are shitheads when discussing topics like thsi



Because fuck you
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Felgraf



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally, I tend to think hate's a pretty destructive and honestly worthless. Anger? Fine. Frustration? Hokay. But hate's *dangerous*. Hate's like drinking poison and hoping someone else dies from it. And hate tends to be a wonderful, *amazing* way of justifying doing horrible things to the object of your hatred.
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Mikewee777



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate is the punchline to every joke. If you are entertained instead of irritated, you have implied that the victim to the punchline deserved it or you are humored by the irony.

I just recently saw idio-crasy on TV yesterday. They totally failed in predicting the future:
http://www.buzzfeed.com/paulj2/idiocracy-prophecies-85a
"Maybe things got this bad because of people like me".

Quote:
Soldiers have a cryogenic facility [ http://science.dodlive.mil/2012/04/23/keeping-cool-cryogenics-and-the-military/ ]
Soldiers are arrested for pimping [ http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/latest/lat_518352.shtml ]
Incompetent lawyers litter America [ http://abovethelaw.com/2012/12/lawyer-of-the-day-sorry-judge-but-im-unavailable-due-to-the-mayan-apocalypse/#more-214336 ]
Chemical spills? Where? http://www.earthtimes.org/pollution/toxic-dumps-flowing-feet/2190/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill
"Brawndo" did increase child fatalities [ http://www.businessinsider.com/nestles-infant-formula-scandal-2012-6?op=1 ]
Salted crops are unable to grow, people starve [ www.cdfa.ca.gov/agvision/docs/Soil_Salinization.pdf ]
Advertizements are everywhere. [No citation needed: just disable ad-block, install adware, open emails, turn on your tv, go to the channel guide channel]
They can track you by bar-code [ http://www.darkreading.com/security/news/224500142/new-hack-pinpoints-cell-phone-user-s-location-personal-and-business-relationships.html ]
"UpGrayeDD" can find his sluts by barcode [ http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/03/24/pimps-arrested-in-spain-for-barcoding-women/ ]
Texas delivers justice by monster truck [ http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=9000160 ]
Texas controls content of most educational books in America [ http://www.discardedimage.com/?p=4182 ]
America has a black president [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_heritage_of_United_States_presidents ]
Don't read these:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2003-12-05/news/0312050201_1_fort-jackson-soldier-training-exercises
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14066330
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14066330


Last edited by Mikewee777 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mikewee777 wrote:
Hate is the punchline to every joke. If you are entertained instead of irritated, you have implied that the victim to the punchline deserved it or you are humored by the irony.

I just recently saw idio-crasy on TV yesterday. They totally failed in predicting the future:
"Maybe things got this bad because of people like me".

Quote:
Soldiers have a cryogenic facility [ http://science.dodlive.mil/2012/04/23/keeping-cool-cryogenics-and-the-military/ ]
Soldiers are arrested for pimping [ http://chronicle.augusta.com/stories/latest/lat_518352.shtml ]
Incompetent lawyers litter America [ http://abovethelaw.com/2012/12/lawyer-of-the-day-sorry-judge-but-im-unavailable-due-to-the-mayan-apocalypse/#more-214336 ]
Chemical spills? Where? http://www.earthtimes.org/pollution/toxic-dumps-flowing-feet/2190/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deepwater_Horizon_oil_spill
"Brawndo" did increase child fatalities [ http://www.businessinsider.com/nestles-infant-formula-scandal-2012-6?op=1 ]
Salted crops are unable to grow, people starve [ www.cdfa.ca.gov/agvision/docs/Soil_Salinization.pdf ]
Advertizements are everywhere. [No citation needed: just disable ad-block, install adware, open emails, turn on your tv, go to the channel guide channel]
They can track you by bar-code [ http://www.darkreading.com/security/news/224500142/new-hack-pinpoints-cell-phone-user-s-location-personal-and-business-relationships.html ]
"UpGrayeDD" can find his sluts by barcode [ http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/news/2012/03/24/pimps-arrested-in-spain-for-barcoding-women/ ]
Texas delivers justice by monster truck [ http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/state&id=9000160 ]
Texas controls content of most educational books in America [ http://www.discardedimage.com/?p=4182 ]
America has a black president [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_heritage_of_United_States_presidents ]
Don't read these:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2003-12-05/news/0312050201_1_fort-jackson-soldier-training-exercises
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14066330
http://www.wistv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14066330


What? I disagree whole-heatedly. One can ridicule without hating. Heck, many jokes deal with strange and absurd *situations*.

Unless, for instance, you suggest everyone who performs self-deprecating humor also actually *hates* themselves?

I mean, who am I hating with this joke?

The bartender says "We don't serve casuality breaking particles here!"
A tachyon walks into a bar.

Or,
"A pirate walks into a bar, his pants bulging to an absurd and bizzare proportion, with numerous nubs pointing out at strange angles. The bartender looks at him in disbelief. "It looks like you've got a ship's wheel stuffed down your pants!"
"Yaaarr, it be driving me nuts!"

or jokes that rely on knowledge of physics, and OTHER knock knock jokes!
"Knock knock"
"Who's there?"
"Interrupting coefficient of friction."
"Interrupting coefficient o-"
"MUUUUUUUUUU"

I'm, um, not really sure who I'm hating with those jokes.
Also: Puns, wordplay, and shaggy dog stories.
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"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
I'm, um, not really sure who I'm hating with those jokes.
Also: Puns, wordplay, and shaggy dog stories.

With those examples and all of those categories, you are hating the audience.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
I'm, um, not really sure who I'm hating with those jokes.
Also: Puns, wordplay, and shaggy dog stories.

With those examples and all of those categories, you are hating the audience.


Apparently I hate my fiance then. That's unfortunate.
_________________
"No, but evil is still being --Is having reason-- Being reasonable! Mousie understands? Is always being reason. Is punishing world for not being... Like in head. Is always reason. World should be different, is reason."
-Ed, from Digger
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Mikewee777



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Mikewee777 wrote:
Hate is the punchline to every joke.


What? I disagree whole-heatedly.
I'm, um, not really sure who I'm hating with those jokes.
Also: Puns, wordplay, and shaggy dog stories.

You hate America. Why the drones haven't struck your home of terrorism is a mystery.
I understand that Dunbar's number plays a role in your apathy, but it really shouldn't.
Everyone who performs self-deprecating humor projects hate of their own credibility.
If you are a crazy statesman and send millions to their deaths you are a hero.
A Single Death is a Tragedy; a Million Deaths is a Statistic.
If you shoot one person you are a murderer.
Causality disruption is serious business.
A pirate in pain is unfortunate.
Puns are a insult to language.
Fantasy is a insult to reality.
Bible is a insult to history.
Interruptions are rude.[/img]
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