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Feminist Utopia Fantasy Story
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the thing is, in the animal kingdom, there are often behaviors that allow one animal to say, and enforce, a 'no' on another animal that wants sex. a female cat, for example, can repel a persistent male with a quick slash across the nose. and in a lot of animals, the behavior seems to be pretty programmed - if the female doesn't give the 'yes, you are the one' signal, well, that's all she wrote. female humans often aren't able to fight off an attacker (cats have yet to learn to use knives and guns). the question is, is it possible for a culture to develop an inviolable 'no' signal? i don't know, but i think it is possible. we certainly learn food phobias that are in no way related to the edibility of said food (how many people here will voluntarily eat a bug?), and eating is also a pretty basic instinct. so it is possible to instill behavior that doesn't correspond to basic biological drives.

SO: i reject the notion that rape/forced sex is an invariable accompaniment to being sexual animals. i think there is a possibility that a culture could exist in which rape is, if not nonexistent, vanishingly rare, because it can only be done by someone utterly incapable of behaving according to that culture's norms (just as there will probably always be people who literally will eat shit).

someone must have done a survey of rape statistics in different cultures. although the data may not be very good, given the issues many cultures have with reporting sexual matters.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
the queen can do nothing lest she cause bodily injury to herself


actually, she can - she can reject him before he gets stuck in. and female cats frequently do.

just because the actual act is painful, and seems violent to us, doesn't mean the animal in question doesn't exercise some choice in whether or not they mate, and with whom they mate. in fact, mate choice is one of the driving forces of evolution. and in a great many species, it's the female that does the choosing.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I think a species needs a certain level of intelligence for forced sex to be rape.
HOLY FUCK ok you know what, I don't know anymore. I looked up bonobos, 'cuz being our closest genetic relatives and all about 'free love', It got me here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_sexual_behaviour#Rape

but right above that is this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_among_animals

BTW, the first article specifically says that bird sex often seems very violent and aggressive.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
the queen can do nothing lest she cause bodily injury to herself


actually, she can - she can reject him before he gets stuck in. and female cats frequently do.

just because the actual act is painful, and seems violent to us, doesn't mean the animal in question doesn't exercise some choice in whether or not they mate, and with whom they mate. in fact, mate choice is one of the driving forces of evolution. and in a great many species, it's the female that does the choosing.

Well yeah, I was meaning once copulation starts, sorry for the confusion.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:

BTW, the first article specifically says that bird sex often seems very violent and aggressive.


but we are not birds; for all we know they may like it that way.

the issue is not whether sex seems aggressive (by that logic, all BDSM is rape, regardless of the fact that the partners are all consenting adults). the issue is whether one partner can force an act on the other _without_ consent.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
is there, like, a reason why you're asking after what makes people sex and dove sex different?

As I said, rhetorical reasons. Bear with me for a minute.
Yinello wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Oh, you are sure as hell right, Darq, it would never be a good thing... However, consider this question that I'll make for purely rhetorical reasons:

Around a month ago, I saw a dove making sex to another dove that very clearly wasn't up to it. They were both out of my reach so it wasn't really in my power to intervene.

Anyway.

Can you tell me the differences between that situation and a human being raping another?


I was like: Eh? Then I read Darq's post and it made sense.

We have to keep in mind that rape is about power, not about sex. A human raping another human desires to make the other submit. A dove, like most animals, are urged on by their instinct to reproduce. So the difference would simply be reproduction.*


*Answer received from local biology teacher. Results may vary.

That's the right answer right here. In the case of a couple of doves, the impulse that one has to force sex into another is merely biological, and not psychological like with humans (I know, the psyche is biology, you get my point.) the difference becomes so abysmal, both for the perpetrator and the victim, that it doesn't seem even remotely accurate to call that rape any more.

Now, back to people. Why is it that, with humans, rape DOES become so important and all of that play of power and submission applies? Well, I'm sure someone will want to prove me wrong, but if it was for me to say, I'd say that there are too many negative connotations that work towards reducing and traumatizing the victim. Most if not all of those connotations stem from the gender-based associations and perceptions of society.

So, as I said, forced sex? Yeah, it'll always be there at one level or another? Rape as we know it can be stopped, on the other hand.



PD: I'm perfectly aware of the fact that I'm barely coherent at times, but haven't found a better way to express this so I hope this will do.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
the thing is, in the animal kingdom, there are often behaviors that allow one animal to say, and enforce, a 'no' on another animal that wants sex. a female cat, for example, can repel a persistent male with a quick slash across the nose. and in a lot of animals, the behavior seems to be pretty programmed - if the female doesn't give the 'yes, you are the one' signal, well, that's all she wrote. female humans often aren't able to fight off an attacker (cats have yet to learn to use knives and guns). the question is, is it possible for a culture to develop an inviolable 'no' signal? i don't know, but i think it is possible. we certainly learn food phobias that are in no way related to the edibility of said food (how many people here will voluntarily eat a bug?), and eating is also a pretty basic instinct. so it is possible to instill behavior that doesn't correspond to basic biological drives.

SO: i reject the notion that rape/forced sex is an invariable accompaniment to being sexual animals. i think there is a possibility that a culture could exist in which rape is, if not nonexistent, vanishingly rare, because it can only be done by someone utterly incapable of behaving according to that culture's norms (just as there will probably always be people who literally will eat shit).

someone must have done a survey of rape statistics in different cultures. although the data may not be very good, given the issues many cultures have with reporting sexual matters.

A very nice post. Good to have you in the conversation, mouse.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:

BTW, the first article specifically says that bird sex often seems very violent and aggressive.


but we are not birds; for all we know they may like it that way.

the issue is not whether sex seems aggressive (by that logic, all BDSM is rape, regardless of the fact that the partners are all consenting adults). the issue is whether one partner can force an act on the other _without_ consent.

I wasn't the one that brought up birds, I was just responding to someone else who did.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yes, but you are the one who seems to be extending the notion to any act that appears violent, painful or aggressive. i'm just saying, we need to be careful of our definitions. it's possible to have violent, but consensual, sex, just as it is possible to have a non-violent rape (like when the victim is unconscious).

or maybe not you, but anyway - i think we need to be careful on terminology here.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see how you may have reached that conclusion, but I wasn't trying to imply any sort of specifics about rape. I was responding to the question posed about birds on the last page with something from the article I linked. If anything, that's proving that violent and aggressive sex, from a third party observer viewpoint at least, could easily be misinterpreted.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

right, but that's not the question. the question is, can there be a society where rape doesn't exist? whatever misinterpretations third parties put on whatever they see is by definition wrong, and therefore irrelevant.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
right, but that's not the question. the question is, can there be a society where rape doesn't exist? whatever misinterpretations third parties put on whatever they see is by definition wrong, and therefore irrelevant.

Overall, I don't think we can know due to lack of accurate reporting. Between women being shamed or threatened with violence (or both) into hiding the truth, systematic cover-ups by oppressive patriarchal regimes, and the propagation of outright lies, we can only hypothesize.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
mouse wrote:
right, but that's not the question. the question is, can there be a society where rape doesn't exist? whatever misinterpretations third parties put on whatever they see is by definition wrong, and therefore irrelevant.

Overall, I don't think we can know due to lack of accurate reporting. Between women being shamed or threatened with violence (or both) into hiding the truth, systematic cover-ups by oppressive patriarchal regimes, and the propagation of outright lies, we can only hypothesize.

T's the idea right here. Sadly, we are not in the position of stopping rape from this forum but, theoretically and if everything goes well, can rape be effectively be gotten rid of?

PD that might or might not be right grammar. Please tell me if it's not
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
the question is, can there be a society where rape doesn't exist?

I seriously doubt it is something over which society can hold sway in the prevention; society can discourage a behavior, and can punish it, but--since society is a nebulous collective and not a concrete thing like a queen's claws and teeth--it hasn't got any effective power to truly prevent a behavior. Compounding this is the fact that most societies restrict themselves to responding only after the act; criminals cannot be prosecuted for contemplating a crime, but only for committing or attempting one.

Does this mean that rape is inevitable, and something that must be tolerated? No! Most certainly not! It is a crime that a person chooses to do, and one which is inexcusable. I cannot even see one claiming ignorance in such a matter; the victim's protests are all the knowledge that any criminal would need to know that his behavior is unwarranted and unwelcome. (Besides, I like to harbor the fantasy that someday our species will grow up enough that we will leave behind us such bestial choices in favor of ones more enlightened. But, fantasy is merely a pleasant diversion, not grounds for argument or action.)

I'm afraid it does mean, however, that, today and for the foreseeable future, we will only be able to respond to the rapist with suitable punishments, and won't have much we can do to stop him from becoming a rapist if he hasn't the decency to stop himself.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LadySunami wrote:

Yeah it kinda sucks that all these things are a threat to anyone walking the streets at night,


Yeah, kinda sucks that all these things are more of a threat to men walking the streets at night. Fixed that for you.

If you're 20-something, female, and affluent enough to be online reading indie webcomics like Sinfest - you are one of the safest demographic categories in the entire US, especially if you're white. Black women are victims of all categories of violent crime at a far higher rate, yet it's fascinating that feminism on Sinfest, Tumblr, Twitter, etc is largely second-wave.

Quote:
but why as a female do I need to worry about rape in addition to all that?


You don't, because it's exceptionally rare for a woman to be raped in the US, particularly by someone they don't know (aka walking down the street at night.) Rape is the rarest form of violent crime, and has been for decades. Despite that, rapes have still declined faster than any other category of violent crime in the last 10 years - it's a pretty linear decline, too.

But: why as a man do I need to worry about murder in addition to all that? Men are 77% of homicide victims, and are more likely to be murdered by someone they don't know....aka, walking down the street. I think I've got far more to fear walking down the street at night than you do, lady.

In general, though, violent crime in the US is a tiny sliver of what it used to be just 20 years ago. Google "mean world syndrome" to understand why you feel so unsafe.

Quote:
Not to mention, for the most part, no one blames the victims of muggings, maulings, and car accidents for "asking for it."


Every time someone gets their iPhone stolen, the city police department takes it as an opportunity to tell us how we shouldn't dare use our cell phones in public and goes down a laundry list of things you're supposed to do if you are. None of which will help if the mugger jogs up behind you and clocks you on the back of the head.

Re: car CRASHES (they're not "accidents"): As a cyclist, I damn well beg to differ. Any time a cyclist is injured or killed, read the comments in the news stories. "Cyclists are reckless" "I bet they weren't wearing a helmet / didn't have lights / weren't wearing high visibility clothing" "They should have known it was dangerous to bike on the roads" "Your bike isn't a car, get off the road" etc.

The joke among cyclists: want to kill someone and get away with it? Wait until they get on their bike, and run them over with your car. The police will fall over themselves to excuse you, the press won't print your name, etc.
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