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Feminist Utopia Fantasy Story
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
Where the hell do you people live? I live in the city and we have these things called street lights and police. I see people (men, women, children) out at midnight all the time. We are not held up in homes with shotguns behind reinforced door as soon as the sun sets because that's when the rape mutants come out. Heck the streets are full of female joggers at midnight in my neighborhood (stupid yuppies).

Given that apr 78% of rapes are instigated by someone the victim knows I really don't get this. (Statistic from National Center for Victims of Crime). I guess I feel sad for you guys and whatever Mad Max world you live in. For me on this side of the Zombie Apocalypse we can walk the streets of most neighborhoods with impunity.

Rape is a horrible crime but it does not normally go down like a scene from a poorly written 1950's comic book.


Look at the lovely newbie being all logical and stuff. Too bad that overestimating the odds of low-probability events is something people do all the time (Dogen might be along shortly to cite relevant papers). Unless you manage to completely eliminate rape, criticizing women for being afraid of it is criticizing them for having a human brain.

Basically, unless we're debating specific policy ideas (which we're not doing here), where a cost-benefit analysis is useful, the exact prevalence of rape is not really that important. (As a long shot defence of your post, you could say that knowing the actual incidence could lower the fear of it, but then you're assuming people posting here didn't know it before your post, quite unlikely on this forum).
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Wheel



Joined: 06 Apr 2012
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would like to point out that I'm a 61 year old man and there are a LOT of places I would be afraid to go outside after dark, forget after midnight.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1019

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I, myself, have an optimistic tendency about this thing (perhaps too much so.) I don't like the idea of fear getting the best of me and go walking at night at a quite regular basis after joining friends for drinks or going to clubs. I look for well illuminated streets and keep a safe distance from other passersby.

However, I know that it's not a policy for everyone and I'm probably tremendously irresponsible in my attitudes. Most of the time, the risk-benefit equation gets broken when the risk is to get raped, hurt or killed.

It does not mean that the victim is to be blamed for taking that choice, as I wouldn't like to be blamed if I'm assaulted and stabbed when I walk home after a fun night.

I don't think my attitude is necessarily the right one. Taking a cab is more expensive but eliminates a serious level of risk. But I think people in general should consider the consequences of fear when it gets in the way of their freedom. That said, you also can't blame someone for being afraid.

...Wow this is a really complex issue.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3176

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
Ronald wrote:
Wait, if "Xanthe" means "yellow," she's...Yellow Justice? Blonde Justice?


Hey, wait a minute... Isn't Lady Justice usually depicted as... you know... gold/yellow? #Symbolism #Maybe


No, looks as if she's usually gray:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Justice

She's golden in at least one image, though.
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Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
Look at the lovely newbie being all logical and stuff. Too bad that overestimating the odds of low-probability events is something people do all the time (Dogen might be along shortly to cite relevant papers). Unless you manage to completely eliminate rape, criticizing women for being afraid of it is criticizing them for having a human brain.


Hmm. I was just legitimately confused by the premise of the comic. None of the women I know are afraid to go out at night. Do you know women who are actually afraid to go out or are you imagining that a woman might be. I really don't think defending the rights of hypothetical people is a good use of my real time. I was just saying in my world with everyone I know (mother, sister, friends, wife, children I teach) this is not a problem.

Are we claiming Xanthe is afraid to go out at night even though the risk is very low? That would be an interesting personality trait if she was OCD like that. Granted one does have to have a personality to have a personality trait and i have not seen much evidence of that up to this point.

Anyway I did some digging and the percentage of rapes that happen in the outdoor are 3.6% and only 60% of rapes happen between 6pm to 6 am you are talking about only 2.16% of all rapes. Given that 40% of rapes occur in the home you are safer going out for a walk.

Women are very unsafe if they focus their fears on some cartoon representation of rape instead of the real way that rapist think a work. Rape is a much more complex crime than some random pervert jumping out of the bushes.

It also dis-empowers women to claim that they are not safe on the streets. If you look at the ways repressive societies control women one of them is claiming women can not go out unescorted. They claim they are protecting them from rape but really all they are doing is keeping them prisoner.

Making people afraid of false dangers is a way to make them dependent. One could read Xanthe's story as a feminist utopia because Amanda was free of the fear of rape even though nothing in society changed. It could be that Xanthe is saying the way to change society is to accept the things that can not change and be willing to face risk. That true revolution comes from within.

Darqcyde wrote:
Also, what about Universities?


They are institute of higher learning that have higher percentage of sexual assaults. According to all the current research the majority of these rapes are associated underage drinking in unsupervised indoor environments like parties and people's apartment/houses. Unless you are proposing that Amanda wanted to take a walk through a frat party I don't really see how this is related.

And frankly walking through someone's house uninvited is kind of rude if you ask me.
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The Peanut Gallery



Joined: 07 Dec 2012
Posts: 66

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, the scared to go out at night is pretty foreign to me. I mean, I've never lived in a place where I couldn't wander down to the 24/7 gas station or over to a local park in the middle of the night. If I ever did, I'd just pick up and move to a better part of town or hell, a better town. An easier option for me then others I suppose.

I mean sure it's still possible, but it's way more likely to get in a car wreck every time I drive. But I also have my own set of irrational fears based on a rational threat, so I wouldn't begrudge someone being extra cautious as long as they didn't try to convince me that their perception is the "right" one.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6052
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
of course, one could point out that the often overexaggerated but nonetheless real threat of stranger-jumps-out-of-the-bushes rape is used as a means of social control to keep women from dressing and acting in certain ways, in policing their movement, in controlling and shaping the risk assessments they must make implicitly or explicitly whenever they leave their front doors, in shaping the attitudes they must take towards others as a matter of mere survival...

and one could point out that that, in fact, is the point of this comic, and the utopia is where Amanda gets to go out for a walk at midnight without having to think about any of that or run that risk...
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10359
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:

Darqcyde wrote:
Also, what about Universities?


They are institute of higher learning that have higher percentage of sexual assaults. According to all the current research the majority of these rapes are associated underage drinking in unsupervised indoor environments like parties and people's apartment/houses. Unless you are proposing that Amanda wanted to take a walk through a frat party I don't really see how this is related.

And frankly walking through someone's house uninvited is kind of rude if you ask me.


First look up "list of cognitive bias" on wikipedia.

Secondly, your post is suggesting if someone walks into a person's house accidentally it's ok for them to be raped.

Third, you've gone from idiot to abhorrent idiot. Your rationale of "I don't see why. . ." is sickening and appalling. You're an unempathetic piece of shit who can't understand that different humans, especially being in different situations and having had different experiences, think differently, view the world differently, look at life differently. Also your manipulation or gross misunderstanding of statistics has caused you to say some repugnant shit:
Drowemos wrote:
Given that 40% of rapes occur in the home you are safer going out for a walk.


You , dudebro, ARE the reason why it is ok to call people dudebro.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 6:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found this strip very bland and insipid, so unprovocative. I though “man, nobody can argue against… the fear of rape is so uncontroversial that…"

Aaaaaaand then I stand corrected. Seems that Mr. Ishida can make his point bigger as he wants and still somebody will miss it. Reading the subsequent pages I found one thing more subtle; Fear of rape is not the same as rape itself… While rape is what it is, fear of rape is a efficient tool of the patriarchy to modulate (sort of) the behavior and thoughs of women.
Sincerely, I doubt I would arrived to this conclusion without the “help” of rothide and is missing-the-point-as-regular-basis routine.
One aclaration, I am not advocating in behalf of every flying turd that comes here to rage and cry for his broken plaything, only in favor of rothide. I think every community needs a person who looks to the finger instead the moon, so sometimes the rest of us can see the moon brighter. Or maybe to point that the nail is dirty.
And damnit, I registered after reading the sentient toaster thread… Someone who defends and reexplains his ideas so relentlessly deserves my respect.
By the way, Shadowcell and Rothide make an awesome maieutic partners!

On the other hand... Drowemos, you and me, one of us are not understanding basic maths:

Quote:
Anyway I did some digging and the percentage of rapes that happen in the outdoor are 3.6% and only 60% of rapes happen between 6pm to 6 am you are talking about only 2.16% of all rapes. Given that 40% of rapes occur in the home you are safer going out for a walk.


"only 60%"??? damn, this is more than half, I think "only" is a bit misspleaced here... isnt it? And, if 40% are inside and 60% are outside, isnt safer going out. I am so... damn, I need a dictionary to find a word for that. Amazed? Wondered? It's basic maths, c'mon!
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We seem to have focused on rape in this thread, but let's not forget that sexual harassment and assault are still issues women disproportionately face.

I think Xanthe's Utopia story also refers to stuff like that.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10359
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wrote:
We seem to have focused on rape in this thread, but let's not forget that sexual harassment and assault are still issues women disproportionately face.

I think Xanthe's Utopia story also refers to stuff like that.

While you're not wrong about how there are other issues, the focus has been on rape because the story is about her going for a walk at midnight.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
Bart wrote:
Look at the lovely newbie being all logical and stuff. Too bad that overestimating the odds of low-probability events is something people do all the time (Dogen might be along shortly to cite relevant papers). Unless you manage to completely eliminate rape, criticizing women for being afraid of it is criticizing them for having a human brain.


Hmm. I was just legitimately confused by the premise of the comic. None of the women I know are afraid to go out at night. Do you know women who are actually afraid to go out or are you imagining that a woman might be. I really don't think defending the rights of hypothetical people is a good use of my real time. I was just saying in my world with everyone I know (mother, sister, friends, wife, children I teach) this is not a problem.


My hometown is by no stretch of the imagination a "bad town", yet about a dozen women were raped in the area over a span of 7 years. The rapist was a seemingly normal man (wife/children, etc.) who killed himself once he knew the police had identified him. This hasn't made women in my area hide inside, but friends of mine do prefer to have a companion when they have to bike longer distances at night.

Quote:
Women are very unsafe if they focus their fears on some cartoon representation of rape instead of the real way that rapist think a work. Rape is a much more complex crime than some random pervert jumping out of the bushes.


You seem to be saying that if women are aware of rape by strangers, this somehow puts them in more danger from other stuff. I fail to see how that works.

Quote:
It also dis-empowers women to claim that they are not safe on the streets. If you look at the ways repressive societies control women one of them is claiming women can not go out unescorted. They claim they are protecting them from rape but really all they are doing is keeping them prisoner.


That would be correct if people actively tried to make women fear rape by strangers or tried to force "escorts" on them. This may happen at times, but certainly not always.

Quote:
Making people afraid of false dangers is a way to make them dependent. One could read Xanthe's story as a feminist utopia because Amanda was free of the fear of rape even though nothing in society changed. It could be that Xanthe is saying the way to change society is to accept the things that can not change and be willing to face risk. That true revolution comes from within.


Is that really how you want to read it ? Society is fine as it is, though it might be better if women accepted that they might get raped from time to time?


Last edited by Bart on Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10712
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Drowemos wrote:
Hmm. I was just legitimately confused by the premise of the comic. None of the women I know are afraid to go out at night. Do you know women who are actually afraid to go out or are you imagining that a woman might be. I really don't think defending the rights of hypothetical people is a good use of my real time. I was just saying in my world with everyone I know (mother, sister, friends, wife, children I teach) this is not a problem.

Fear of rape tops list of Greek women aged 17-29.
Fear of rape and other crimes more common in women, especially those with fewer means, and induces isolation.
Study of Canadian women finds support for the theory that fear of victimization among women correlates with experiences of male aggression across the lifespan, not just crimes.
"Sample survey data from Seattle are used to examine fear of rape among urban women. The magnitude and prevalence of such fear are striking, particularly among younger women, who fear rape more than any other crime."

Now, the dissociation between fear of rape and the probability is explained by a lot of things. For one thing, the cost-benefit ratio is high, which leads people to overestimate the probability of an event that has a high cost. Also, variable rates of enforcement increase response presentation. The unpredictable nature of rape increases the precautionary behavior (behaviors intended to avoid the punishment). If we include the data that suggests women are sensitized to male aggression through experiences below the bar of sexual assault or rape,* then it's not difficult to understand the heightened surveillance and precautionary behavior.



* All people are sensitized in this way, but we're talking about women and rape, so the relevant issues is whether women are sensitized to the threat of rape by exposure to sub-threshold stressors.
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Drowemos



Joined: 28 Feb 2013
Posts: 29

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oooh Kaaay... clearly we have entered a place where humor is going to be missed so let's just stick to the fact.

1) I did not mean to propose that anyone should be raped for any reasons. I was make a point that the higher prevalence of rape at university is not related to a rape in the outdoors by strangers. The factors that cause that increase are not related to the current discussion. They are in fact something that is much worse and should be address but not related in any way shape or form to taking a walk. The point of the discussion was do women fear taking a walk.

2) The statistics I am using are from the Department of justice an can be found here:

http://www.statisticbrain.com/rape-statistics/

Perpetrators home 30.9 %
Victims home 26.6 %
Perpetrator and victims shared home 10.1 %
At a party 7.2 %
In a vehicle 7.2 %
Outdoors 3.6 %
In a bar 2.2 %

Granted in these stats there is 12.2% unaccounted. I can't tell you what that 12.2% is but what is is not is outdoors that is clearly delineated as 3.6%.

The 60% is another statistic from the National Institute of Health on times that rape occurs independent of location. Now you could claim that it is a bit fast an loose to combining data from two different studies without comparing methodology. That is a valid complain. But the point I was is that time of day is not a major factor in rapes.

3) The point of all of this is the "rapist in a bush" is a chauvinistic myth designed to make woman dependent and justify rapes that don't conform to the violent attack myth. It is a particularly self absorbed and harmful male fantasy that is propagated by the media to the determent of women.

My cousin works as a rape counselor and she very often has to deal with women being reluctant to report rapes because the were "not attacked". Many raped women are specifically told by their attackers that they didn't rape them because they didn't attack them.

Something can be done about domestic rape. Something can be done about date rape. Something can be done about raping of women at parties. Very little can be done about a crazy person in a bush. These other type are rape are the poison in our society not a perv in a trenchcoat.

@Darqcyde do you have a particular cognitive bias you are accusing me of or are you just implying that I am generally bias? Got a justification of that charge? I can say that your University statement was Ignoratio elenchi and your cogitative bias statement appears to be a "Poisoning the well" under logical fallacies. I suppose could call the dudebro thing an Ad hominem but it's weak tea as far as ad hominem goes so I will just stick with "poisoning the well" myself by implying your acting like a bit of a jerk without saying it directly.

(alright one joke in the last line. I could not resit. That was bad of me and will not help the argument but it was just so easy to mock that wikipedia statement.)
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6052
Location: California

PostPosted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so you're disagreeing with the comic by agreeing with the comic

alright then
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