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2013-03-06: Victim Blaming
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 185

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't the disgruntled tomato throwers just, oh I don't know, stop showing up? Monique has been shifting her poetry style and content for a while now, she's being promoted on posters so they have to know she's there and talking about things they don't like. Its like the previous strip when they said they were leaving and yet they continuously keep coming back, expecting a different outcome. And well, a certain definition of insanity comes to mind then :p
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2675
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:

But yes she was trying to purposely rile them up. I referenced a comic earlier where she shouted to the crowd "F*** you, I do what I want."

The crowds reaction is a rude one, and that is most certainly true. However, she goes there, time after time. In fact, she trains and prepares for the resistance she is about to face. In this most recent one she bought a lacross stick to RETALIATE. So, she GOES into these situations, KNOWING she is going to encounter resistance.

So, Slick, seeing that the treatment of the crowd is what gets her upset, puts it forth as: "Shouldn't rile 'em up like that. You know how they get." Monique knew what she is expecting. Slick just pointed out the obvious.


But that still doesn't make their actions right and victim blaming is justifying the victim's actions. Nique goes there because she truly believes she can convince her crowd to understand why she does what she does. Slick's basically telling her to give up or to conform to what the crowd wants. Now honestly, which fighter wants to be told that?

I like to see this as a follow up on the comic where Slick saying he's feeling irrelevant when facing everyone who has a goal. Slick doesn't understand why saying this is annoying for Nique because he hasn't attempted to reach out to her in her new mindset. Everytime he comes in contact with a form of feminism, he gets defensive and shuts it out.

One of the things I usually encounter with guys is that they tend to give unwanted advice a lot. If someone wants comforting, just give a hug, not an opinion.
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: 2013-03-06: Victim Blaming Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
AngelLilly wrote:

Wow this shit is deep here. lots of subtle shit goin' on here.

First off, Slick is definitely in the wrong. Monique, however, should not be surprised by this, 'cuz frankly Slick is acting exactly how you would expect his character to act based upon what we know of him. That doesn't mean his behavior, namely victim blaming, is justifiable or condonable by any measure.


i'm not sure if we can comment on whether of not slick is in the wrong here because i'm not sure of the exact meaning of his words, inflection means a lot... one thing i think we can say though is that its not enough to brand this as victim blaming. in some situations it is known that a certain action is likely to bring about a certain response, if you jump into the tiger cage they're probably going to eat you. if you try to explain equality and feminism to incompetents and dudebros it's likely that you'll get heckled. is she at fault? no. is she a bit stupid for knowing the likely results of her actions beforehand and still deciding to go through with them? pretty much... if the people won't change and she continues to try the same tired methods... well, a certain definition of insanity comes to mind. if thats all he meant by it then i don't think you can fault him

*shields up, brace for return fire*
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1017

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
One of the things I usually encounter with guys is that they tend to give unwanted advice a lot. If someone wants comforting, just give a hug, not an opinion.

A lot of us guys have serious trouble communicating at an emotional level and, when we feel someone is uncomfortable, will attempt to rationalize a solution rather than entering an area we are at unease with.

Not an ideal situation, but there's the reason.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:

But yes she was trying to purposely rile them up. I referenced a comic earlier where she shouted to the crowd "F*** you, I do what I want."

The crowds reaction is a rude one, and that is most certainly true. However, she goes there, time after time. In fact, she trains and prepares for the resistance she is about to face. In this most recent one she bought a lacross stick to RETALIATE. So, she GOES into these situations, KNOWING she is going to encounter resistance.

So, Slick, seeing that the treatment of the crowd is what gets her upset, puts it forth as: "Shouldn't rile 'em up like that. You know how they get." Monique knew what she is expecting. Slick just pointed out the obvious.


But that still doesn't make their actions right and victim blaming is justifying the victim's actions. Nique goes there because she truly believes she can convince her crowd to understand why she does what she does. Slick's basically telling her to give up or to conform to what the crowd wants. Now honestly, which fighter wants to be told that?

I like to see this as a follow up on the comic where Slick saying he's feeling irrelevant when facing everyone who has a goal. Slick doesn't understand why saying this is annoying for Nique because he hasn't attempted to reach out to her in her new mindset. Everytime he comes in contact with a form of feminism, he gets defensive and shuts it out.

One of the things I usually encounter with guys is that they tend to give unwanted advice a lot. If someone wants comforting, just give a hug, not an opinion.


That is true. Whenever I get the feeling that my girlfriend has had a bad day, I'll ask her if she is alright and if she wants to vent. I'll even go to the point of saying, "Honey, do you want me to stay quiet and vent a bit or do you want any advice from me?"

I believe I got that from this article. I loved it. I always keep it in the back of my mind for ANY argument. http://www.michaelcrichton.net/essay-playboy-howtofight.html


P.S. Oh, and I guess the fact that this was in Playboy does NOT help...but it is a darn good article, I SWEAR. O_O


Last edited by Gibson22 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:23 am; edited 2 times in total
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tekii wrote:
Why don't the disgruntled tomato throwers just, oh I don't know, stop showing up? Monique has been shifting her poetry style and content for a while now, she's being promoted on posters so they have to know she's there and talking about things they don't like. Its like the previous strip when they said they were leaving and yet they continuously keep coming back, expecting a different outcome. And well, a certain definition of insanity comes to mind then :p


i'll assume you're talking to me since thatís where the insanity thing came from. i'll give you two theories and then the real answer. like i said she's dealing with incompetents and dudebros, not the smartest out there. second, as far as i can tell she preforms at the same place all the time so the people might not change as much... if you want the real reason though its because tat can't use the patriarchy angle with nique's poetry if the jerks stop showing up, easy as that. the story doesn't change until the author wills it, and it would appear that tat isn't done with the tomato throwers yet.

personally i don't really care about that part. i just wanted to come up with an alternative for slick so that he didn't have to be perceived as an ignorant jerk, even though thatís probably what tat was going for. i tend to play devils advocate around here when things get polar :)
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reader1 wrote:
Tekii wrote:
Why don't the disgruntled tomato throwers just, oh I don't know, stop showing up? Monique has been shifting her poetry style and content for a while now, she's being promoted on posters so they have to know she's there and talking about things they don't like. Its like the previous strip when they said they were leaving and yet they continuously keep coming back, expecting a different outcome. And well, a certain definition of insanity comes to mind then :p


i'll assume you're talking to me since thatís where the insanity thing came from. i'll give you two theories and then the real answer. like i said she's dealing with incompetents and dudebros, not the smartest out there. second, as far as i can tell she preforms at the same place all the time so the people might not change as much... if you want the real reason though its because tat can't use the patriarchy angle with nique's poetry if the jerks stop showing up, easy as that. the story doesn't change until the author wills it, and it would appear that tat isn't done with the tomato throwers yet.

personally i don't really care about that part. i just wanted to come up with an alternative for slick so that he didn't have to be perceived as an ignorant jerk, even though thatís probably what tat was going for. i tend to play devils advocate around here when things get polar Smile


I...I...it finally happened. I finally found someone who believes in a "Good" Slick! ;_;
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1017

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
Reader1 wrote:
Tekii wrote:
Why don't the disgruntled tomato throwers just, oh I don't know, stop showing up? Monique has been shifting her poetry style and content for a while now, she's being promoted on posters so they have to know she's there and talking about things they don't like. Its like the previous strip when they said they were leaving and yet they continuously keep coming back, expecting a different outcome. And well, a certain definition of insanity comes to mind then :p


i'll assume you're talking to me since thatís where the insanity thing came from. i'll give you two theories and then the real answer. like i said she's dealing with incompetents and dudebros, not the smartest out there. second, as far as i can tell she preforms at the same place all the time so the people might not change as much... if you want the real reason though its because tat can't use the patriarchy angle with nique's poetry if the jerks stop showing up, easy as that. the story doesn't change until the author wills it, and it would appear that tat isn't done with the tomato throwers yet.

personally i don't really care about that part. i just wanted to come up with an alternative for slick so that he didn't have to be perceived as an ignorant jerk, even though thatís probably what tat was going for. i tend to play devils advocate around here when things get polar Smile


I...I...it finally happened. I finally found someone who believes in a "Good" Slick! ;_;


I personally believe in a growing Slick. Not quite good, but actively trying to improve.
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i like the good slick. doesn't mean thats what he is right now. as far as i can tell tat's curently writing him as about 25% caring, 40% everyman, and 35% dudebro. if you want to know where i'm coming from though my favorite version of slick is the one back when he was trying to be good/zen, right around here
i think slick's character works best when there's a tug of war between his desire and virtue.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
Posts: 1173
Location: Hedonism

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:
But he's acting compassionate. He sympathizes with her position. He even separates himself genuinely by referring to the hecklers as "you know how THEY get". And his advice is right. Unless Monique is ready to fight those battles, she shouldn't be seeking trouble when she can avoid it.



Um, yeah, you just described a "nice guy" (and that's not a good thing)


Sympathizing with someone's position and being compassionate is what "nice guys" do? Shit, I've been a "nice guy" all along! HOW DO I FIX MYSELF!? (And if being a "nice guy" is supposed to work, then why haven't I dated anyone in... forever?)

Snarky response aside (sorry Darq), I can see some of both sides here. First off, the club/bar/coffeehouse (see http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=326) patrons are obviously gits. I mean, booing someone at open mic for something unfunny or untalented is in poor taste, but throwing fruit is just ignorant, and assault, I would think. They also obviously completely miss the message that Monique is trying to send to them.

On the other hand, it's open mic night. Going up there and yelling "fuck you" and flipping off the patrons, even if you're doing so for a worthy cause, isn't exactly kosher. Personally I found it funny (Monique's fembot skit) and I probably would have clapped, but I could see why someone who was there to hear say, poetry or stand up comedy might be taken aback by someone flipping you off, or someone who was simply there for a coffee. I'm pretty sure most coffeehouses or pubs would throw you out for such behavior, or at least take away your free coffee privileges.

I would be most interested if there is a follow up to this, could lead to some interesting storyline.
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Last edited by fritterdonut on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:11 am; edited 3 times in total
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2675
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Yinello wrote:
One of the things I usually encounter with guys is that they tend to give unwanted advice a lot. If someone wants comforting, just give a hug, not an opinion.

A lot of us guys have serious trouble communicating at an emotional level and, when we feel someone is uncomfortable, will attempt to rationalize a solution rather than entering an area we are at unease with.

Not an ideal situation, but there's the reason.


That makes sense.

@Gibson: Believe it or not, I've always believed Slick is good. I see Slick as I see most dudebro's: They do believe they're doing good and they're really not out to do bad, but they're unaware that they're harming others because they won't let themselves understand how others feel.
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firezdog



Joined: 23 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's all about tone. Persuasion is an art, and if you want to change people's minds, first you have to find common ground. It's fine to try and educate people, but no one likes to be the target of education.

'Nique and the Seymour have a lot in common right now (aside from the weird gay-for-Jesus thing) -- both of them spend a lot of time selling something no one wants to buy. It's funny when he does it, because we're not supposed to be sympathetic to his message, but it's tragic when 'Nique does it, for the opposite reason -- but formally, it's the same thing.

Well, I can't really feel very indignant towards the tomato-throwers when Tat is making them throw tomatoes. I mean, a woman reads poems about feminism in a *poetry club* and people throw tomatoes? That would never happen. OK, I guess it's not impossible, but it's VERY unlikely.


Last edited by firezdog on Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:17 am; edited 1 time in total
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

firezdog wrote:
It's all about tone. Persuasion is an art, and if you want to change people's minds, first you have to find common ground. It's fine to try and educate people, but no one likes to be the target of education. 'Nique and the Seymour have a lot in common right now (aside from the weird gay-for-Jesus thing) -- both of them spend a lot of time selling something no one wants to buy. Of course, it's funny when he does it, because we're not supposed to be sympathetic to his message, but it's tragic when 'Nique does it, because we are supposed to be sympathetic to hers -- but formally, it's the same thing.


I absolutely, totally, 100% agree. People tend to feel the plight that they are most sympathetic too. I wanted to bring up the idea of missionaries or pastors teaching in the streets and the conflict they face, but for me, that must wait until another time.

If it was Seymour in this situation, people would be saying that he was bringing it onto to himself. That is because his views are not commonly shared on a forum such as this.

On that note: I am off to bed...or so I tell myself. O_O

Good night all you internet/Sinfest scholars.
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Smooshie



Joined: 24 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Victim blaming is so easy. Poor Slick, falling into that trap out of concern for 'Nique.

Poor 'Nique for having tomatoes thrown at her. I mean, holy shit, what did she do? You'd have thought from the audience's reaction that she castr-

oh. Laughing
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Psiwrite



Joined: 05 Sep 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are so many layers going on here...Slick being likely genuinely compassionate but not realising what he's saying, Monique explicitly acknowledging her new mission of feminism, the first real exchange between Slick and Monique that looks like it could lead to a new arc, but most of all - is this the first Sinfest strip to perhaps suggest that the feminists can also overreact? Because the joke here is Monique also being one of 'those people' being riled up...
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