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Mar 7 2013 -- Victim Blaming 2
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe yes, maybe no.

Tat's message throughout all of the Patriarchy ‹ber-arc, though, is still a very good one: No-one needs to be nice when it comes to being oppressed.

Whether 'Nique reaches her audience or not, I think Mr. Ishida has firmly reached his.

BTW, Reader, you do realize, don't you, that the Reverend Fred Rogers is singing a children's song in that gif in Monkey's sig line? Monkey exceeds quite well at irony.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with ShadowCell. Saying you have to be nicer is a slippery slope. You can just keep getting nicer until you don't want to ruffle feathers at all. There will always be someone who feels threatened by your position. You can be the nicest feminist on the block and someone will still lash out because you threaten his or her world view. So it's not enough to say, "be nice," or, "don't rile them up," unless you phrase it conditionally. Be nice, but never give up your morals. If they're incompatible, give up being nice.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I'm with ShadowCell. Saying you have to be nicer is a slippery slope. You can just keep getting nicer until you don't want to ruffle feathers at all. There will always be someone who feels threatened by your position. You can be the nicest feminist on the block and someone will still lash out because you threaten his or her world view. So it's not enough to say, "be nice," or, "don't rile them up," unless you phrase it conditionally. Be nice, but never give up your morals. If they're incompatible, give up being nice.

Not really trying to start an argument... But I think that's exactly what Slick meant. Keep on with the message in a way that won't make people throw you expired flora.
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ktern



Joined: 02 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i still think that when slick and 'nique have been friends this long it's surprising that she seems to expect more from him. as it is, maybe it's better for their friendship to end / be put on hold until he actually grows a brain

maybe xanthe can point him in the right direction since 'nique is too mad to bother
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Dogen wrote:
I'm with ShadowCell. Saying you have to be nicer is a slippery slope. You can just keep getting nicer until you don't want to ruffle feathers at all. There will always be someone who feels threatened by your position. You can be the nicest feminist on the block and someone will still lash out because you threaten his or her world view. So it's not enough to say, "be nice," or, "don't rile them up," unless you phrase it conditionally. Be nice, but never give up your morals. If they're incompatible, give up being nice.

Not really trying to start an argument... But I think that's exactly what Slick meant. Keep on with the message in a way that won't make people throw you expired flora.


Based on what?

His exemplary record of supporting her feminism and the concept of treating women like people?
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vector010



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I'm with ShadowCell. Saying you have to be nicer is a slippery slope. You can just keep getting nicer until you don't want to ruffle feathers at all. There will always be someone who feels threatened by your position. You can be the nicest feminist on the block and someone will still lash out because you threaten his or her world view. So it's not enough to say, "be nice," or, "don't rile them up," unless you phrase it conditionally. Be nice, but never give up your morals. If they're incompatible, give up being nice.


Off topic, but I find it absolutely delicious that somebody attempted to counter a Tone Argument fallacy with a Slipper Slope fallacy. Razz

The thing is Dogen, when somebody says you should attempt to convey your message in a nicer fashion they are qualifying it basically how you said. I mean, they are still saying that you should attempt to convey your message. Of course context is extremely important here to. Depending on the context I suppose it could be a veiled attempt at silencing you. On the other hand it could also be a valid critique on how to most effectively convey your message to your intended audience.
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Miss Magenta



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ktern wrote:
maybe xanthe can point him in the right direction since 'nique is too mad to bother


dude can i get this for my birthday
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:
Off topic, but I find it absolutely delicious that somebody attempted to counter a Tone Argument fallacy with a Slipper Slope fallacy. Razz

The thing is Dogen, when somebody says you should attempt to convey your message in a nicer fashion they are qualifying it basically how you said. I mean, they are still saying that you should attempt to convey your message. Of course context is extremely important here to. Depending on the context I suppose it could be a veiled attempt at silencing you. On the other hand it could also be a valid critique on how to most effectively convey your message to your intended audience.


On the other hand... I must insist, tennis-ball-cannon full loaded with cucumbers! BOOMPH! Almost-sonic-phallus-veggie on you!
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king rat



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll just say my own here, and not worry about the backblast. I'll be interested at hearing any from all sides, though, multifaceted as it is.

First, this is a comic. The more violent sides would have been banned from the coffee house outright. 'Nique might even have been banned long ago for wearing a skimpy bikini on stage, let alone deliberately goading people to rage against her with inflammatory speech.

Second, this isn't the 1700s. Anyone who actually threw anything during a performance at an open mic night would have been arrested and perma banned at any business, as well as anyone afterward who even looked like they would cause that kind of trouble. What kind of insane person runs this business?!

Oh wait, that's right. A CARTOON CHARACTER.

Third, Slick's gone through literal hell for Monique, and is a proven friend, whatever his personal opinions. Couldn't she simply ASK for a hand in what she's doing, collaborating, instead of smacking him aside? Misguided-sounding words aside, he sounds like he wants to help get her message across without her getting pelted with rotten fruit.

Also, I'll admit I'm missing part of 'Nique's own character evolution. Not the SHAKE DAT ASS, but the more compassionate one, who was working to help people, even in the face of the Devil himself (converting the Succubi) to enforcing humane treatment of workers. It just seems that side's been forgotten in terms of just the Patriarchy. Sure, it's a powerful cause, but it's not her only cause. Let's bring some of that other back too, huh?

Others have brought up, made, and even fought, my points better, even on this thread. So there you go.

My two cents.
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

completely random, but would anyone enjoy reading an arc where slick is kidnaped by the sisterhood and gets "reprogrammed?"
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

king rat wrote:
I'll just say my own here, and not worry about the backblast. I'll be interested at hearing any from all sides, though, multifaceted as it is.

First, this is a comic. The more violent sides would have been banned from the coffee house outright. 'Nique might even have been banned long ago for wearing a skimpy bikini on stage, let alone deliberately goading people to rage against her with inflammatory speech.



Funny how you would victim blame in a thread titled the same.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Answering to king rat:

-Well of course they should be thrown out/arrested/whatever shit. I don't think anyone's arguing with that fact. It's easy to guess that they are just a representation of negative backlash, whatever the form (for example, people coming to the forum to complain about it)

-Slick really has tried A LOT to be a better person or more fit for someone like 'Nique. But he still has a long way to go. I agree in that 'Nique could ask for a hand from a friend in this situation, but I think that she already knows that Slick is perhaps not the appropriate person for it. He'll have to become the appropriate person on his own, I'm afraid.

-I already stated my opinion both about Slick's and 'Nique's developments so that's kinda covered already.
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vector010



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
On the other hand... I must insist, tennis-ball-cannon full loaded with cucumbers! BOOMPH! Almost-sonic-phallus-veggie on you!


Part of me would find that hilarious.

The science nerd part would be freaking out about the potentially lethal assault with ballistic vegetables.

And the fem (and Dr. Who fan) part of me gets giggly and excited about the idea of sonic phalluses. Razz
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
ktern wrote:
maybe xanthe can point him in the right direction since 'nique is too mad to bother


dude can i get this for my birthday

Is it that time of year, again?

Well, Tat, MissM is indeed a devoted fan, a regular contributor on the forums, and a wealth of fascinating (albeit occasionally disturbing) ideas for how the characters could interact. What would it cost to have an original art of Xanthe pointing Slick in the right direction to face and overcome his inner dudebro sent to such a loyal fan? We might be able to do something Kickstarter style to purchase the original art for her and get a chance to see it in canon as a result? (Pretty-ple-ee-ea-ssse!!)

What are Tat's thoughts on the matter? :casts yarrow stalks around the room:

Hm. Apparently Tat thinks I need to pick up my room...
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Last edited by bitflipper on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vector010 wrote:
Off topic, but I find it absolutely delicious that somebody attempted to counter a Tone Argument fallacy with a Slipper Slope fallacy. Razz

Slippery slopes are not necessarily fallacious.

Quote:
The thing is Dogen, when somebody says you should attempt to convey your message in a nicer fashion they are qualifying it basically how you said. I mean, they are still saying that you should attempt to convey your message. Of course context is extremely important here to. Depending on the context I suppose it could be a veiled attempt at silencing you. On the other hand it could also be a valid critique on how to most effectively convey your message to your intended audience.

You manage to invalidate your first sentence with your third. The goal of telling someone to be nice may be simply to prevent disruption of the status quo.
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Last edited by Dogen on Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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