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Mar 7 2013 -- Victim Blaming 2
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Raal



Joined: 16 Jun 2012
Posts: 53

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Had a similar argument with my girlfriend last year or so.
We discussed how to tell the idiot masses about feminism, or how to make a self-righteous idiot think about his privilege.
We came to the conclusion, that on the one hand, its kind of idiotic to treat those meatheads with care to not hurt their ignorant, yet tender souls, but on the other hand if you actually want to reach through to them and don't just want to blow some steam off, you should indeed choose your words with care.
Still, there will always be dudes being offended by you, no matter your phrasing, but these are the lost causes. For me at least, since I don't want to spend more time on particularly idiotic individuals.
So I believe its best to try to choose your words with care if you want to actually reach through to them, but don't mix it up with trying to please/soothe them. Feel free to correct me if I'm barking up the wrong tree here.


Last edited by Raal on Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:24 pm; edited 3 times in total
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vector010



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 103

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
vector010 wrote:
Off topic, but I find it absolutely delicious that somebody attempted to counter a Tone Argument fallacy with a Slipper Slope fallacy. Razz

Slippery slopes are not necessarily fallacious.

Quote:
The thing is Dogen, when somebody says you should attempt to convey your message in a nicer fashion they are qualifying it basically how you said. I mean, they are still saying that you should attempt to convey your message. Of course context is extremely important here to. Depending on the context I suppose it could be a veiled attempt at silencing you. On the other hand it could also be a valid critique on how to most effectively convey your message to your intended audience.

You manage to invalidate your first sentence with your third. The goal of telling someone to be nice may be simply to prevent disruption of the status quo.


Tone arguments aren't necessarily fallacious either. But aside from that, there is no logical reason that someone being asked to "tone it down" would eventually result in them being silenced. That actually does make your specific usage a fallacy.

Anyway, all that is kinda pointless because I super (conditionally) agree with this:

Dogen wrote:
Be nice, but never give up your morals. If they're incompatible, give up being nice.

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LadySunami



Joined: 04 May 2009
Posts: 187
Location: Elsewhere

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ricia wrote:
But...Slick is right. People don't like being hit over the head with this stuff. If you get in everybody's face they feel attacked and they either shut down or lash out. The Sisterhood is, in fact, more subtle. Xanthe leaves literature for people like Crim and Lime but never yells at them to read it or even checks if they have. Curly has a booth and answers questions but only to those who come up and ask. Nique is being obnoxious. Her cause is great but her methods...Slick is right. She needs to tone it down or nobody is going to listen.

Actually, Nique doesn't "get in everybody's face" usually. I remember someone saying this on another thread too, also implying she's acting the same as Seymour (well, acting how he used to.).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Nique doesn't go wandering the streets spouting about feminism any more then Curly does. She speaks about the patriarchy at a sort of poetry slam/open mike event, an event that is literally designed to allow people to talk about their feelings and perspectives in an artistic manner. That is not at all the same as following men around bashing them for being brainwashed patriarchy drones or whatever.

And in case anyone decides to bring this up, her shows have not become any more rude or vulgar. So she flipped off her audience... She used to shake her ass and "ride" the microphone. I'm sure there are just as many people in the world offended by behavior like that.

Over all I'm quite impressed with her response here. She didn't lose her temper and start a big fight with him, she just left. I approve. Smile
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king rat



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if I came across that way, Monkey. I thought I made it clear, violence is abhorrent in any debate of ideology, even if the major whatevers use it as a favorite 'mechanism'.

That said, Monique is hardly a 'victim'. She's playing hardball. While she's feeling some fallout, and I'll sympathize, she's feeling one thousandth of sisters who've come before her. Through her efforts, others will feel even less, or finally, none.


Progress, baby. It's a beautiful thing.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 1804
Location: im probably asleep right now

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reader1 wrote:
completely random, but would anyone enjoy reading an arc where slick is kidnaped by the sisterhood and gets "reprogrammed?"


no. because they're decent people and wouldn't outright kidnap someone of clear sentience and free well and the ability to say "no, i don't want this." regardless of their sex, gender, or whether or not they're a sexist buttface.

however, i would enjoy an arc where slick gets himself into some deep shit because he's a dumbass, and the sisterhood saves him anyways because he's a human being worth saving and isn't completely beyond saving.

they know that he's a human being of worth, just as they are. xanthe would have never wasted her time trying to reason with him if they - or she - thought that he will never realize the error of his ways. they would never waste their time having agents keep an eye on him - and they don't seem to have keep an eye out for ANYONE ELSE, only him - if they thought that he could never change.
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Random Wanderer



Joined: 08 Jan 2012
Posts: 181

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can call it blaming the victim if you want, but nothing I have seen about Nique's methods of spreading her feminism would actually work for convincing anybody (except for the bits with Minique, where she behaves in an entirely different, non-confrontational manner). Nique is simply shoving her opinion down everyone's throat in the most ham-handed way she can. That sort of approach will not convince anyone: in fact it would annoy practically anybody. So yes, people get upset with her.

There will always be jerks no matter what she does, but she could at least do things in a way that wouldn't upset the people who might normally be on her side. Moderating her tone for that purpose does not require backing down from her convictions, or abandoning her message. She can learn to deliver it with more precision. To use a military analogy: a sniper rifle, striking exactly where she needs to strike for the most effect, rather than just nuking everyone in general.
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king rat



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss M, definitely not being a troll, just tossing out ideas for the divine Mr T...

I'm thinking that would be really hard for Glossy to work with. Just drawing a parallel here, and hopefully giving a good story.

Glossy is a hardcore soldier. She's got an agenda that needs to break through, and maybe advocates can blend it into society better, but right now it needs to be brought forward on the front lines.

I'm thinking Aldo Raines in Inglourious Basterds.

He's willing to rip through the Nazi ranks, even though some of those are shown to be clearly good men, and there might later be people on that side to convert the rest to the Allied cause, and stop butchering those who are different.

But at his heart, he is, and always will be, a basterd. Hardcore.

Unfortunately, after a regime change, it's the true revolutionaries who brought it about that are fought the hardest.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 1804
Location: im probably asleep right now

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah i'm not buying it, sorry.

i don't think that analogy works for her at all, honestly. well, ok, actually, you had me for a second there. could have had me at just she's a soldier until you went on and referenced something i'm not familiar with, plus a description that i personally feel does not describe her or do her justice at all!

she's not going to waste her time on something that she doesn't believe she has time for. if she doesn't believe she can't change someone's POV in that minute she could be using to do something more important, she's not going to. if she thinks it would be a waste of time, she's done. outta the ball park. she isn't going to waste her time on something she feels is a lost cause. she usually just says a few things, or drops something off, and leaves. but she made time for slick. she actually spoke with him one-on-one. she didn't have to. she really didn't have to. she didn't even need to try speaking with him at all. but she did.

and then she had a woman inform her about what he was getting up to. she had her analyze him. tell her what she thinks is his major malfunction. something that we have never seen anyone in the sisterhood do for anyone else, something that they don't need to do. they could hack into wickedpedia and get information on anyone they want to and need to, if they wanted to. or they could just access the site, it's not clear if it's a private thing exclusive to the devil and his minions, or a public thing. either way. they don't need to personally keep up with him. but they did.

i don't think she'd really have any trouble deciding whether or not to save someone who is in trouble. even if they are a man, even if they are sexist. if they're truly in danger, and she's there, she's not going to waste any time dawdling. she will save them. maybe they won't appreciate it, maybe they will. it doesn't matter to her. it's literally her job to protect, to defend. to save. it's her goal, and her cause. her trikes abilities are all defensive. shields, for protection. boosters, for getting away from danger. the only truly offensive ability the trike has is self-destruct. which only hurts whoever is on the trike, and the trike itself. she might not stick around, she has no obligation to, but she's a character that is established as having a desire to defend and save people. to enlighten them. she's harsh, feisty, independent, and isn't going to waste time coddling someone. if you want love, you're going to get love so tough you can practically feel it punching you in the face.

i think if we're going to compare her to any fictional soldiers, sgt. calhoun from wreck it ralph might be a better comparison. honestly.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2673
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last I checked, being nice never changed anyone's minds. Loud angry mobs do.
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king rat



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is a very detailed study, and interesting in its own right. However, you may have missed my point for my own specific idea (not my ideaology) Glossy is a soldier, was my point start and stop. Tarantino's gore fest is off-putting, but Raine's tactics make him a psychopath in any social setting; however, his abhorrence of the Nazi ideology is very widespread in the target audience.

May I point out, at the time of the end of ww2, antisemitism was barely being fought back, and practically embraced in America in some areas. Feminism was far behind where it is now.

I'm sorry; I grew up with a grandmother who was born into poverty in the Old South, and then got to interact with ancestresses on my grandfather's side who were feminist rebels in Boston Brahmin families (one of them helped found the Audubon Society, no joke!)


I feel I'm really learning from the forums here and elsewhere, and I'd like to take this opportunity away from the time lurking for five years and thank you for that.

And with the above, share with you some of where I'm coming from as well.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1017

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Last I checked, being nice never changed anyone's minds. Loud angry mobs do.

Check again. ^^

Sure, the kind of mindchanging action that you are expecting doesn't come from niceness, but it's really the nice people that you will listen to and will help you amplify your worldviews. It's certainly not the same kind of minds that mobs like to change, but at an individual level you'd be more open minded towards a nice person sharing his/her viewpoints than towards an angry brute trying to impose them.
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 1804
Location: im probably asleep right now

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@king rat:

as i said, i'm not buying it. or rather, i guess i should instead say that i'm not following. you're, again, referencing something i am not familiar with. although i think i might be able to sort of understand where you're coming from, this time around.

however! i don't think it works for how tat seems to want to portray her, and i don't think it works for how he's established her so far.
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Last edited by Miss Magenta on Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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king rat



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Yinello, it's not the private nice words, it's the revealing in the right contexts in public and directing public opinion.

Making true changes in public policy can benefit others and and advance political careers, but you'll probably end up in the dust.

Just ask Mikhail Gorbachev, or too many I can't even remember.
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
Posts: 2673
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Last I checked, being nice never changed anyone's minds. Loud angry mobs do.

Check again. ^^

Sure, the kind of mindchanging action that you are expecting doesn't come from niceness, but it's really the nice people that you will listen to and will help you amplify your worldviews. It's certainly not the same kind of minds that mobs like to change, but at an individual level you'd be more open minded towards a nice person sharing his/her viewpoints than towards an angry brute trying to impose them.


I was referring to the French revolution really. I like spouting one-liners in the morning.

In all seriousness though, on the internet I don't expect anyone to change their mind, be it with nice or angry words. You miss the emotions, the body language and other things I might have missed.
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king rat



Joined: 20 Jan 2013
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss M: Thank you.

I do try to dance around various ideological potholes here, and it's kind of hard on the internets, but I'm impressed that while we don't see eye to eye, and I'm sure you could bring a barrage of counter arguments to the fore, so I'm thankful that you leave it at that.

I've run into trolls amok in my last few months, amongst my own personal tragedies going on, so I guess I should say thank you very much, your 'nets civility gives me hope, and I'm not being sarcastic.
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