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More gun laws = fewer deaths, 50-state study says
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not really, I mean i guess it's irrelevant to you because i'm not entirely certain you aren't an alien being. But for us mortals the ability of others to mistakenly or negligently kill someone with the squeeze of a trigger from far away as opposed to the difficulties involved in killing someone with say, a club are relevant indeed.

See, it's about minimizing harm, not preventing all instances of anti-social behavior.
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Thy Brilliance



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 9:17 pm    Post subject: My dream house is made entirely of metal. Reply with quote

Let me repeat myself since I don't believe the message has gotten through.

If they can't enter your house, you never have to make the choice of pulling the trigger.


BAM, PROBLEM SOLVED.
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fritterdonut



Joined: 24 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, unless you live in a bunker, there's always going to be a way in. Hell, you can get into a bunker if you take a cutting torch to the door.

Anything can be broken into with enough determination, time, and tools.

Obviously thieves pick the easier houses to break into, doors or windows unlocked, windows not barred, single deadbolt doors, etc. But you can't make a house that is impossible to break in to.
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Snorri wrote:
mouse wrote:
well, no, he is at fault for sneaking out and drinking. he made conscious decisions to do things he knew he wasn't supposed to do.

if he had stayed home, as his parents had directed, he wouldn't have been out drinking, he wouldn't have gotten drunk, he wouldn't have been trying to find his way home when drunk...it all builds on the previous steps.


Yo I don't want to accuse you of victim blaming but this is victim blaming.


victim blaming, such as it is, goes a bit beyond rhetorical derail in this particular issue. I think it's fair to blame the victim for house invasion while drunk, because it's something he committed.

guns just enabled (and probably drew the culture for) an overresponse and upped this to a tragedy.


Ok I may have been unclear perhaps. This guy is absolutely to blame for the house invasion. And he got shot which is not unreasonable for someone to do, though tragic.

My point was rather that that is what he is at fault for. And not the getting drunk/sneaking out. Those things aren't part of the blame, much like wearing a skirt and getting drunk doesn't make you at fault for shit.

That's why I offered up the example of him getting gunned down in the street. You wouldn't see people claiming it would be partly his fault for being drunk and sneaking out. Because even though had he not done those things he'd still be alive they also obviously didn't cause his getting shot.

He is totally to blame for house invasion. Because that is what caused the actions of the guy who shot him.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:35 pm    Post subject: Re: calling intolerance mature is the only magic in this thr Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Sam wrote:
Quote:
that someone will likely die of a severe head injury as I bash them over the noggin with the first piece of furniture I can lay my hands on. They won't have the chance to identify themselves, because I'll be swinging the instant that door opens.


Quote:
Speaking for myself: because I know how much force a 200-lb, fairly fit man whose been in industrial engineering most of his career and who builds carpentry projects, does a touch of blacksmithing, and digs up, cuts, and polishes stone as hobbies can generate when he gets something a couple feet long and weighing ten to twenty pounds in his hands. Flesh and bone won't stand up well, against it.


Yeah, dude, no. You could be mike tyson with a lead pipe and the odds that you would defensively kill someone with non-penetrative trauma from a strike to the head is pretty damn low. Orders of magnitude lower than scenario resolution wherein you shoot them.

unless you have some sort of magic power to ensure a significant enough epidural hematoma on the first strike you really don't know what you're talking about? I don't even know what this is supposed to assert re: home invader theory


Its the same mistaken thinking that goes on and on about how criminals will just kill people with knives or rocks or bats or bombs, despite the fact that it's actually far harder to accomplish than use of a gun.



Falling down and striking your head on the ground is one of the most common causes of epidural hematoma.

It really isn't that hard to generate the force needed to ensure epidural hematoma.


Well yes and no. It is indeed easy to generate enough force for that. But that doesn't mean it's easy to kill someone with a baseball bat in this situation. It's dark, you have to aim quickly and the guy will most likely shield himself somewhat.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:20 am    Post subject: Re: calling intolerance mature is the only magic in this thr Reply with quote

Thy Brilliance wrote:

Falling down and striking your head on the ground is one of the most common causes of epidural hematoma.

It really isn't that hard to generate the force needed to ensure epidural hematoma.


Yeah, so what percentage of times wherein someone falls to the ground and strikes their head do they get a fatal epidural hematoma

pre-emptive answer: way the fuck less than the percentage of times a person will die when shot

irrelevant derail over


Quote:
calling intolerance mature is the only magic in this thread.


It sure is, and I could have taken out a loan on the guarantee that you would not have understood
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
That there are too many people too irresponsible with dangerous weapons derping around this country.

That, I will agree, is the real problem: owning any firearm requires responsibility--responsibility which is too often absent in the owner.

In this case, though, seeing as the victim ignored a screaming burglar alarm, a verbal warning, a warning shot, a direct shot to the shoulder, and walked past the man who was shooting him while police were en route in response to the homeowner's 911 call, I don't think it was the gun owner behaving irresponsibly. And, given what all that kid ignored while continuing to make himself look like a threatening invader, I don't see where gun, knife, or golf club would have made any significant difference to the outcome other than the size of the wounds inflicted by the man trying to defend his home and family from someone who had just moved to his neighborhood a scant couple of months earlier--not really enough time to get to know someone well enough not to believe they are a serious threat when every single freaking action they take is giving the impression that they are a dire threat.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

if the story is as told so far, the homeowner did nothing wrong and does not present an example of a negligent gun owner or someone who demonstrates why gun ownership as home defense is demonstrable folly, yeah
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
if the story is as told so far, the homeowner did nothing wrong and does not present an example of a negligent gun owner or someone who demonstrates why gun ownership as home defense is demonstrable folly, yeah


Yeah this is not really a case of "stupids with guns". It's just sad that a kid died.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
a direct shot to the shoulder, and walked past the man who was shooting him


Given the news report, I think the homeowner actually only hit him once, in the shoulder. If it had hit the subclavian or brachial arteries there's a good chance it would be fatal without immediate, well-trained medical attention.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
if the story is as told so far, the homeowner did nothing wrong and does not present an example of a negligent gun owner or someone who demonstrates why gun ownership as home defense is demonstrable folly, yeah


That depends entirely on how well the owner deals with killing a 17 year old kid, justifiably or not. That we'll probably never get the story of.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
if the story is as told so far...

Yeah, that kind of has me wondering, too; it's really beginning to sound kind of Urban Legend-ish. If nothing else, I'm having trouble believing that someone drunk enough not to notice that he's just been shot could even walk. I imagine we'll be hearing plenty more about it, though.

But, as told so far, it sounds like the homeowner did everything "by the book," even down to firing his first shot to hit the kid away from the kid's center of mass so as to give the kid the best chance of surviving the shot. I'm actually wondering if the homeowner was law-enforcement.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

being shot in the shoulder is actually pretty damn deadly. it is a really bad place to get shot. better to have one straight through a lung or the gut, as weird as that sounds.

Quote:
even down to firing his first shot to hit the kid away from the kid's center of mass so as to give the kid the best chance of surviving the shot. I'm actually wondering if the homeowner was law-enforcement.


the kid being shot in the shoulder is not evidence that the guy was not aiming center mass, and if he was law enforcement, he's more likely to be aiming center mass, not less. pd training dispenses of the folly of "shoot to wound" mentality quite quick.

they know that if you are shooting at someone, you are unabashedly using lethal force.
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good point. And, thinking about it, I think I'd prefer that an officer shoot seriously with the first shot; it's less chance that others get endangered.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think officers should have more machine guns.
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