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More gun laws = fewer deaths, 50-state study says
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Sojobo



Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fritterdonut wrote:
the homeowner is still waking up to a burglar alarm and someone fumbling through the house in the dark at 2:00AM with no idea who it is, what they want or if they're armed.

Even accepting all of these circumstances in exactly the way you describe them, "he was coming right for us" rhetoric included, it was still wrong of the homeowner to shoot the drunk kid to death.

It was weird for me to read your posts, and see that your first reaction was to defend the shooter, then to blame the drunk kid, then to blame the alcohol supplier, then to blame the drunk kid again, all without even considering that maybe the story doesn't have anything to do with making sure we blame the correct person. It's a tragedy. The blame doesn't have to fall on anyone in particular.

If you're really jonesing for an argument to throw yourself against, though, I think you'll find that a lot of people would blame, not the shooter, but the bare fact that the shooter had a gun in his house. Remove that element, and a drunk teenager sneaking into the wrong house is probably going to end in comedy, not tragedy.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
If you're really jonesing for an argument to throw yourself against, though, I think you'll find that a lot of people would blame, not the shooter, but the bare fact that the shooter had a gun in his house. Remove that element, and a drunk teenager sneaking into the wrong house is probably going to end in comedy, not tragedy.

I disagree abou the ending probably being a comedy not a tragedy. Even without owning a gun, the home owner could have bludgeoned the kid to death with any number of house hold items, a baseball bat, fire place poker, metal dumbbell, etc. And even if the kid was able to communicate and had time to, there's no guarantee that the home owner would have believed or excepted his plea given the circumstances. I'm not saying we should remove any blame from the gun owner, but there's all kinds of people to blame: the person who supplied the alcohol, the person who initiated the drinking, the kid himself.

But mostly I blame society. A three sport athlete (In american high schools three sports is usually the most you can do in one year without doing stuff concurrently) like this kid violated his parent prohibition and the law before he was killed. In light of the tragedy, this seems to be overlooked. I'm not saying this kid is as bad as a rapist nor am I trying to claim any sort of slippery slope. The idea of an excellent young athlete (or whatever valued skill) is above "regular" rules is sadly a part of more than just American culture.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Sojobo wrote:
If you're really jonesing for an argument to throw yourself against, though, I think you'll find that a lot of people would blame, not the shooter, but the bare fact that the shooter had a gun in his house. Remove that element, and a drunk teenager sneaking into the wrong house is probably going to end in comedy, not tragedy.

I disagree abou the ending probably being a comedy not a tragedy. Even without owning a gun, the home owner could have bludgeoned the kid to death with any number of house hold items, a baseball bat, fire place poker, metal dumbbell, etc. And even if the kid was able to communicate and had time to, there's no guarantee that the home owner would have believed or excepted his plea given the circumstances. I'm not saying we should remove any blame from the gun owner, but there's all kinds of people to blame: the person who supplied the alcohol, the person who initiated the drinking, the kid himself.

But mostly I blame society. A three sport athlete (In american high schools three sports is usually the most you can do in one year without doing stuff concurrently) like this kid violated his parent prohibition and the law before he was killed. In light of the tragedy, this seems to be overlooked. I'm not saying this kid is as bad as a rapist nor am I trying to claim any sort of slippery slope. The idea of an excellent young athlete (or whatever valued skill) is above "regular" rules is sadly a part of more than just American culture.


Darc, you don't have to be an athlete for that. Have you seriously never sneaked out of the house for a party?
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Darc, you don't have to be an athlete for that. Have you seriously never sneaked out of the house for a party?


Snorri's slogan when I read that post: "Party hard, party with Snorri."

I lol'd.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
Sojobo wrote:
If you're really jonesing for an argument to throw yourself against, though, I think you'll find that a lot of people would blame, not the shooter, but the bare fact that the shooter had a gun in his house. Remove that element, and a drunk teenager sneaking into the wrong house is probably going to end in comedy, not tragedy.

I disagree abou the ending probably being a comedy not a tragedy. Even without owning a gun, the home owner could have bludgeoned the kid to death with any number of house hold items, a baseball bat, fire place poker, metal dumbbell, etc. And even if the kid was able to communicate and had time to, there's no guarantee that the home owner would have believed or excepted his plea given the circumstances. I'm not saying we should remove any blame from the gun owner, but there's all kinds of people to blame: the person who supplied the alcohol, the person who initiated the drinking, the kid himself.

But mostly I blame society. A three sport athlete (In american high schools three sports is usually the most you can do in one year without doing stuff concurrently) like this kid violated his parent prohibition and the law before he was killed. In light of the tragedy, this seems to be overlooked. I'm not saying this kid is as bad as a rapist nor am I trying to claim any sort of slippery slope. The idea of an excellent young athlete (or whatever valued skill) is above "regular" rules is sadly a part of more than just American culture.


Darc, you don't have to be an athlete for that. Have you seriously never sneaked out of the house for a party?

Yeah, and my dad almost shot me because he thought I was a burglar.

The video changed since I posted it originally, but you had to hear how they went on about this kids athletic achievements and what not.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:

If you're really jonesing for an argument to throw yourself against, though, I think you'll find that a lot of people would blame, not the shooter, but the bare fact that the shooter had a gun in his house. Remove that element, and a drunk teenager sneaking into the wrong house is probably going to end in comedy, not tragedy.


except even i have to admit - of all the times people have been awakened at 2 am by a stranger in the house, how many times has it been a drunk teenager? there are such things as burglaries and rapists who invade the homes of sleeping women. so in this case, i really can accept that the homeowner was within his rights to have, and use, a gun. i really don't see that taking a baseball bat to the kid would have been a better solution - would giving him head trauma not also be a horrific outcome?

yes, getting shot for sneaking out after being grounded is really awful. but a 16-year-old who gets so drunk he doesn't know what house he's going into...there's something really wrong there, that the kid doesn't understand how many risks he is running (alcohol poisoning, drunk driving and all the harm that can do, laying himself open to getting robbed or raped or run over himself because he is incapacitated...it's a long list).

after steubenville, all i can say is, i have to wonder what parents are teaching their children these days.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
after steubenville, all i can say is, i have to wonder if parents are teaching their children these days.


Fix'd Wink
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bitflipper



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mouse brings up a good point. This story would have been just as tragic if the kid had wrapped his car around a tree, or had passed out somewhere and asphyxiated on his own vomit, or had gotten his skull split open by a nine-iron instead of being shot. End outcomes are all the same, and all pretty equally likely considering the kid was inebriated. How much of this story actually has anything to do with a firearm, and how much has to do with a kid thinking he's above the law and then paying the price when he found out there are laws he's not above at all?
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bitflipper wrote:
Mouse brings up a good point. This story would have been just as tragic if the kid had wrapped his car around a tree, or had passed out somewhere and asphyxiated on his own vomit, or had gotten his skull split open by a nine-iron instead of being shot. End outcomes are all the same, and all pretty equally likely considering the kid was inebriated. How much of this story actually has anything to do with a firearm, and how much has to do with a kid thinking he's above the law and then paying the price when he found out there are laws he's not above at all?


Except that the first two are tragic consequences of no ones choices but his own, and for the third, while it could be fatal its far from a guarantee that getting cracked in the head with a nine iron is going to lead to immediate death. The odds of that increase once you start putting holes in people that blood gets to come pouring out of.

The story is pretty much entirely about firearms unless you are of a type inclined to blaming the victim of violence for having violence done to them.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
after steubenville, all i can say is, i have to wonder what parents are teaching their children these days.

These things all happened in previous generations, you just didn't hear about them. Everyone (almost literally) thinks the world was simpler and safer when they were young... but that's because you didn't watch the news, your parents likely shielded you from much of the horror in the world, and children are generally self-centered. Every generation thinks "kids these days" are worse, and yet we're living in the safest time in human history, and we more or less all survive to worry about the next generation.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
bitflipper wrote:
Mouse brings up a good point. This story would have been just as tragic if the kid had wrapped his car around a tree, or had passed out somewhere and asphyxiated on his own vomit, or had gotten his skull split open by a nine-iron instead of being shot. End outcomes are all the same, and all pretty equally likely considering the kid was inebriated. How much of this story actually has anything to do with a firearm, and how much has to do with a kid thinking he's above the law and then paying the price when he found out there are laws he's not above at all?


Except that the first two are tragic consequences of no ones choices but his own, and for the third, while it could be fatal its far from a guarantee that getting cracked in the head with a nine iron is going to lead to immediate death. The odds of that increase once you start putting holes in people that blood gets to come pouring out of.

The story is pretty much entirely about firearms unless you are of a type inclined to blaming the victim of violence for having violence done to them.

I have a hard time looking at someone as solely a victim when they are engaged in a crime and that crime, while not the ultimate factor, invariably leads to their demise. I would say that the kid was definitely a victim, but to say that his own actions did not at least partly contribute to his own demise is just plain wrong.

The kid wasn't like some woman who's just walking down the street and gets jumped by a rapist. He wasn't some elderly person swindled by a con artist. He was willfully engaged in criminal activity, underage drinking. Had he been engaged in say a murder, even at 16 he could have been tried as an adult. but no, he was engaged in underage drinking. He didn't deserve to die, but you simply can not prove he was not at least partly responsible for his own demise.

It's only victim blaming if you say he's either solely responsible or mostly responsible for his own death.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Thu Mar 21, 2013 7:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
mouse wrote:
after steubenville, all i can say is, i have to wonder what parents are teaching their children these days.

These things all happened in previous generations, you just didn't hear about them. Everyone (almost literally) thinks the world was simpler and safer when they were young... but that's because you didn't watch the news, your parents likely shielded you from much of the horror in the world, and children are generally self-centered. Every generation thinks "kids these days" are worse, and yet we're living in the safest time in human history, and we more or less all survive to worry about the next generation.


Yeah. The media spouts off about how violence is spinning out of control, even when it's been steadily decreasing and is currently on par with the violent crime rate in the 1960s.

A lot of people wouldn't know from today's media that the deadliest attack in a school in the US occurred over 80 years ago.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, first off, if you're tut-tutting about his underage drinking, you'd damn well better not have ever imbibed alcohol before you were 21, because that's some hypocritical bullshit right there.

Second off if we weren't a country full of cowards who think that a shoot first ask questions later mentality is somehow valuable to society this never would have happened.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

part of why those of us who are over 21 worry about the drinking of those under 21 is that we have, in fact, been there, and are aware of the bad things that can happen. hoping that others can learn from your experience without significant cost to them is not hypocritical.

and if you were a woman living in a neighborhood where there had been a series of break-in rapes and you were awakened by someone breaking into your house at 2 am - would you think it worth the risk to stand around talking to the intruder? how about if you had small children in the house? not everyone is physically capable of winning a struggle with an intruder - are you really going to call all those people cowards?

look, this is a tragic situation. it would be nice if we had phasers or something that we could set to 'stun', so you could disable an intruder but still leave him in good condition. but until then, there are very definitely cases where people have genuine reason to be in fear of their lives, and if some of them choose to have a gun, i can't really fault them (if they choose to have an assault rifle, i can). if they use that gun in a legal fashion against someone who is actively committing a crime (intentionally or not) - i can't fault that, either.

i gotta say it - in this case, the victim _is_ at fault. he did at least two things he knew he shouldn't be doing, and as a result, found himself in a situation that resulted in his death. this is not a kid walking around in a public space, like trayvon martin. this is not a woman who is accused of causing her own rape because she dared to wear a dress. this is a kid who knew he was supposed to be home, but chose to sneak out; who knew it was illegal for him to be drinking, but chose to drink until he was inebrated; and who then chose to try to sneak back in - and in the process, caused another person to fear for his own safety. yes, knowing everything, i wish the householder hadn't had a gun. if i had been the householder, in the same situation, i probably would have wished for one.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Ok, first off, if you're tut-tutting about his underage drinking, you'd damn well better not have ever imbibed alcohol before you were 21, because that's some hypocritical bullshit right there.


IT'S A CRIME, MONKEY! A CRIME!

but yeah man, underage drinking is such a thing that I'm always surprised at people who haven't done it. In this country! With the drinking age being 16!
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