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3/29 senseless violence
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All your examples are interesting, but this one mades me raising the hand for a question:

Sojobo wrote:
Imagine the same for a woman alone on an elevator, until a man joins her. He is blocking the door. The fault is with the history of patriarchal attitudes, not the individual man, but that doesn't stop it from feeling dangerous.


My question is a bit aside, here goes:

Would be the gentlemanliness reinvented to fit that kind of situation? I was educated with a serie of gestures to the females (hold open the door, let the women pass first, take the heavier box so they take the lighter and so). I was told later, in my twenties, that this is sexist because treats the women like little fragile objects unable to take pressure of some kind.

That confound a lot of me and still haunts me. I still think I am being nice but sometimes I feel shame.

Well, coming back to the question, could be the gentlemanliness reinvented to educate man in the uneven social situation where we are being unaware of acting dangerously in the woman eyes?

I know I am a pain in the ass asking and asking and asking but I think is the only cure to ignorance Razz
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
Would be the gentlemanliness reinvented to fit that kind of situation? I was educated with a serie of gestures to the females (hold open the door, let the women pass first, take the heavier box so they take the lighter and so). I was told later, in my twenties, that this is sexist because treats the women like little fragile objects unable to take pressure of some kind.

That confound a lot of me and still haunts me. I still think I am being nice but sometimes I feel shame.

I was told the same thing, a bit later in my years than yours, and struggled with the same problem. Then I realized, I honor my elders the same way: holding the door for them, offering to help with heavy groceries, or offering to return their grocery cart to the cart return rack for them. I've never had any of my seniors complain that I was dishonoring them with my offers. So, if a woman thinks I am trying to insult or belittle her with a minor service of respect I offer to my elders just as automatically, then she can just race me to the next door and hold it open for me. She'll get a polite "thank you" for her troubles.

And, yes, I'm sure I've offended one or two ladies over the years by offering those services. I learned a long time ago that you can't please everyone. So I will continue to be true to my upbringing and to myself, and hold doors for ladies, for my elders, even for another gentleman entering or leaving immediately after me. And to that meager handful out of the countless thousands of people for whom I shall hold doors over the course of my life who become offended by that offered service, I can merely tip my hat or touch my brow and wish them a good day in compensation.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
Would be the gentlemanliness reinvented to fit that kind of situation?

You mean waiting for the next elevator instead of getting on, to try not to be intimidating?

That seems like a good idea to me, but I have no idea whether it would be appreciated or considered insulting. I imagine you could get either reaction, depending on the individual experiences of the person you are trying to be polite toward.

I think I'd ask the question of the women of the board - if an unfamiliar man let your elevator pass because he was worried you might be uncomfortable riding with him, would you find it considerate or slightly insulting?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hold the door open for anyone who happens to be behind me, and offer to help with heavy things if someone looks like they're struggling. It might offend some people, it might not, but I'm less concerned with offending people than treating them equally.

Which is why I'm happy to get things off the top shelf for short people, as long as they'll pick things up off the floor for me.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Speaking of holding doors, someone I know was bitching (and making vague threats of violence) on Facebook about how he held the door open for a girl and some other dude walked through it.

This was very strange to me since I was just used to everybody holding the door open for everybody, especially when it's convenient to do so.
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SA_Penguin



Joined: 13 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen Sojobo, bitflipper: you make very good rational points. While the world should be equal, it isn't. The ideal of total equality is just that: an ideal. Practicalities intrude.

I'll drop the inequality argument about implied violence. I still feel Monique is unjustified in expecting men to cater to her fantasy, but I'll write that off as traces of the original, somewhat self-centered character.

ShadowCell: [Ruffles through old posts] MRA = Mens Rights Activist?
Oh, wow.
To dismiss any argument you don't like, by labelling the other person. Wow.

Thank you for giving me a taste of the 1950's and the Senate inquiry into un-American activities. anyone who dared question the excess of Senator McCarthy risked being labelled a "commie sympathizer" or "closet red". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism I find it particularly ironic that the woman's suffrage movement was dismissed as a "Red" plot.

Was that your intention when labelling me as MRA, comrade?
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SA_Penguin wrote:
Dogen Sojobo, bitflipper: you make very good rational points. While the world should be equal, it isn't. The ideal of total equality is just that: an ideal. Practicalities intrude.

Yeah... the world isn't perfect. Color me shocked. I just do the best I can, day in and day out. Personally - and this may just be me (a rather non-threatening, tall guy) - I find that when I treat people equally (that is, I ask people who appear to be having difficulty if they need help, but not people who don't appear to be having difficulty) I don't often seem to offend people. Probably because people who appear to be having difficulty are more likely to be having actual difficulty, and thus appreciate an offer of help. Or they just hide it and write about me on tumblr later. I don't know.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is Monique's fantasy that Slick would behave like a decent human being? I'm not clear on what fantasy she has been unjustly holding Slick to.

In the case of the audience, Monique had a delusion they were actually interested in her intellect and her causes. But then she discovered when she actually spoke her mind without accompanying her thoughts with sexual enticement, they react with violence. It seems fair to assume that they were only there for the ass shaking. As in, the folks who might say they read Playboy for the articles wouldn't stick around if the articles were all that were published.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

yo SA_penguin if you don't want be "labelled" as an MRA you should stop acting like one
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Mercian



Joined: 27 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
I hold the door open for anyone who happens to be behind me, and offer to help with heavy things if someone looks like they're struggling. It might offend some people, it might not, but I'm less concerned with offending people than treating them equally.

Which is why I'm happy to get things off the top shelf for short people, as long as they'll pick things up off the floor for me.


That sounds like a good way to handle things. I normally drag myself around on crutches, so I always appreciate people keeping the door open after they've gone through to save me struggling and, likewise, if there's someone behind me, I'm happy to act as a doorstop so they can follow me through.

Mind you, being disabled and therefore, apparently, genderless, I don't encounter much of the 'layyydeees first' treatment. Perhaps when I get my bionic legs, that'll change!
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SA_Penguin wrote:
I'll drop the inequality argument about implied violence. I still feel Monique is unjustified in expecting men to cater to her fantasy, but I'll write that off as traces of the original, somewhat self-centered character.

While expecting anyone to fulfill ones fantasies for one is generally foolish and merely invites disappointment, I think that's only a small part of what Monique is expressing. There is also a valid expectation for decent manners (to her audience, theoretically: "Why do you throw things at me when you disagree with what I say? That's just plain rude!") and a reasonable expectation for empathy (to Slick, theoretically: "You're apparently intelligent enough and imaginative enough to place yourself in my shoes and to understand why I feel what I feel, so why do you excuse the audience's rudeness and try to put their bad behavior on me as my fault?") Since those are, respectively, a valid expectation and a reasonable expectation, I'd say that Monique is rather thoroughly justified in her anger and her hurt. Her fantasies, if they have any part to play in her current frame of mind, only play an insignificant part compared to her valid expectation that others know how to behave and her reasonable expectation for empathy from a friend.

SA_Penguin wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

Hmm. Interesting take. But some crucial differences: You are not being oppressed, nor black-listed, nor are any of your civil rights being violated, by ShadowCell expressing his opinion of your opinion. Do try to bear that in mind. You might be able to make a case for slander, but, under tort law, you'd have to show how ShadowCell calling you a Men's Rights Activist causes you to suffer real and substantial damages; I'd be very surprised if anyone can do that in regards to comments on an internet forum. Also, frankly, the evidence of your own statements which prompted ShadowCell's comment would seriously undermine your own case; you'd have to present some pretty astounding evidence and testimony to offset that. Beyond that, well, ShadowCell said it far more succinctly than I can.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:

I think I'd ask the question of the women of the board - if an unfamiliar man let your elevator pass because he was worried you might be uncomfortable riding with him, would you find it considerate or slightly insulting?


i'd think he was being overly PC - but then again, i would probably have no idea why he didn't take the elevator, and guess that he really wanted one that was going in the other direction.

but blocking the elevator door is rude, whatever your gender. get on, select your floor (or if, for example, the woman is standing next to the buttons, ask her to hit your floor), and then stand aside, so other people can get off or on.


.....i guess i do tend to take the position near the panel, though. so if some guy got really weird, i could hit the alarm button. of course, i would probably hit the wrong one and stop the elevator or something stupid like that.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i would probably have no idea why he didn't take the elevator, and guess that he really wanted one that was going in the other direction.

Yeah, unless he said something like, "Madam, I don't want to alarm you, but... I'm going to take the next elevator!" there's no real reason to think you'd know where he was going or why he did anything. He'd just be a guy who didn't get on the elevator.
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