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A Respectful Conversation about Rape Culture
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In rape culture, rape is a means of control, and especially is something done to women by men. So rape of men is supposed to be funny because it is emasculating - in the same vein of saying a man hits like a girl or does ______ like a woman.

It is supposed to be funny also because you are supposed to be able to prevent rape if you really don't want it, and men are all not supposed to want it - so clearly they did if it happened.

And now a good link:

http://dbzer0.com/blog/feminists-dont-think-all-men-are-rapists-rapists-do

"6% of college age men, slightly over 1 in 20, will admit to raping someone in anonymous surveys, as long as the word “rape” isn’t used in the description of the act."

"Virtually all rapists genuinely believe that all men rape, and other men just keep it hushed up better. And more, these people who really are rapists are constantly reaffirmed in their belief about the rest of mankind being rapists like them by things like rape jokes, that dismiss and normalize the idea of rape."
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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've heard frequently that the primary motivation for rape isn't sexual, but control. The agressor is seeking to assert their control over someone else. If this is true, then rape happening as a means of control makes some kind of sense in prison for creating a social heirarchy. It does seem to get excused in some of the same ways, in spite of the different context, namely, "They deserved it."

In my mind, some of this echoes the discussion of the effects of video games and violence, where the issue isn't the content itself, but an individual's inability to separate fiction from reality. If rapists assume from the jokes that the behavior is normal, there is a clear disconnect there.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Acutally, out of curiosity, how does rape culture pertain to men that have been raped? (And contribute to rape culture?)


An ugly combo of machismo culture and the objectification/commodification of people as sex objects leaves men able to experience parallel levels of stigma.

Take that guy who reported having been raped by multiple girls: immediately the internet was awash with a bunch of "lawl way to be a puss about it, free foursome and he complains lawl" comments which solidified a degree of ingrained shittiness related to the issue.
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Arthain



Joined: 09 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know, I read the last 3 pages and saw all the venom being spewed at Guest.

I've never had to pleasure? of dealing with him but I have to ask you, why are you letting him drag you down to his level?

If you want him to leave, ignore him. Just completely shut him out, act as if his posts don't even exist. Nothing hurts more than total isolation, except being all alone in a crowd. Let him say whatever he wants, just pretend he doesn't even exist.

He'll leave on his own eventually. But so long as you respond, in ANY fashion, he's getting a reaction, he's getting attention, he's getting what he wants.


Anyways, rape culture is an odd beast to handle. Not sure I really want to touch it myself.

Quite frankly the whole issue needs to be redefined. Rape is not limited to male on female acts. There are female on female, male on male and female on male as well.

To reduce it to a single aspect of the issue instead of the whole makes the entire idea and concept fundamentally flawed. Raising awareness of Rape Culture in a Male on Female abusive setting isn't going to solve the problem, it won't solve anything. It's like trying to make a car with 4 flat tires drivable again by only replacing 1 of them. It's not going to work.

In addition Male on Female rapes can't be considered the most common form of rape out there. It can ONLY be considered the most common form of REPORTED rape. There is so much shame associated with this on the 'male' side of the coin that it's impossible to get accurate statistics because none of us want to report what's happened to us.

And that's why stats are worthless when it comes to rape because most stats only include what people report or are convicted of.

Most rape is done as a form of control, and gender doesn't play an issue in that situation. Rape should never be considered a gender specific issue and because of that Rape Culture shouldn't be considered gender specific. Until the movement to abolish Rape Culture becomes gender neutral it's a pointless movement.


P.S.
I'm not even going to START on the number of cases that started out consensual, and this means being coherent enough to give consent, first and later on the female turned around and decided she was 'raped' after the fact. In a he said/she said situation, the female always wins in the court of law and they know it. At least they do where I live anyways.
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, so this is a legitimate, serious question that has occurred to me that I would like to discuss respectfully without anyone jumping down my throat for condoning rape culture. Just as a way of easing communication and making progress do you think we should maybe not lump all forms of unwanted attention and unintentional or non-malicious sexual harassment under the balloon of rape culture? I know that they are all symptomatic of the same mentality but some guys who would normally be supportive of change seem to get defensive when their (admittedly) inappropriate staring, for instance, gets them labeled as being part of the culture of rape. Getting normally supportive guys all defensive and protective of their pride and perception of themselves just makes them stubbornly cling to ideas that they know might be wrong or not really even true for them because they can't accept that they may have been perpetuating rape culture. Is making slow progress toward the middle to avoid alienating supporters acceptable or is it just pandering to the misogynists?

This thread couldn't sustain a respectful discussion for this reason (even before guest's asshattery). Why should we expect anyone else to be different?
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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one of the biggest hurdles for any cultural change is fear of retaliation, or the idea that speaking up against a perceived or actual cultural norm makes oneself a target. It is a very real concern, but we shouldn't shy away from discussion on any level because of it. Sure, it can be risky, but it's also the right thing to do in this case. Fear makes a poor advisor.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rape culture is an ugly thing and it has an ugly name. Giving it an easier to digest name will just soften it into something that is easier to dismiss.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If you want him to leave, ignore him. Just completely shut him out, act as if his posts don't even exist. Nothing hurts more than total isolation, except being all alone in a crowd. Let him say whatever he wants, just pretend he doesn't even exist.

He'll leave on his own eventually. But so long as you respond, in ANY fashion, he's getting a reaction, he's getting attention, he's getting what he wants.


"do not feed the trolls" and its derivatives has always, since the history of forever on the internet, been well intentioned but completely useless advice. None of this advice is strategically worthwhile. Some of it is in fact an idea which is damaging in practice.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Rape culture is an ugly thing and it has an ugly name. Giving it an easier to digest name will just soften it into something that is easier to dismiss.


yeah, you're right. of course you're right. and I appreciate the phrasing and tone of your response. it was direct and not demeaning. I feel a little ashamed for considering anything else but I don't feel the need to be defensive about it. so we don't change our language to placate anyone who doesn't agree but shouldn't we try to change the language of how we convince them that they're wrong? I'm not suggesting compromising on tolerating injustice but we need to communicate better. passion and righteous rhetoric are necessary to motivate people to seek change but are they the best way to get people to change? if we expect other people to change then we should be expected to be able to change how we deal with them. if we can't keep from getting into a shouting match over these sensitive topics then we are doing something wrong.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ultimately, I think it boils down to the fact that people are human and imperfect. In a perfect world sure, we'd be able to keep a cool head in the face of even the most hateful arguments... but then, if this was a perfect world we wouldn't have to.

It gets frustrating to correct people all of the time because even the most gentle corrections are often met with defensiveness and even hostility. Add into it the fact that most of the people who are trying to get rid of rape culture often have very personal and painful reasons and yeah... people are gunna get heated. To say it's hard not to is an incredible understatement.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Getting normally supportive guys all defensive and protective of their pride and perception of themselves just makes them stubbornly cling to ideas that they know might be wrong or not really even true for them because they can't accept that they may have been perpetuating rape culture.


It is impossible to have a respectful conversation about rape culture with the people who are coming in whining that it doesn't exist and whatever else crap they have to say.

When I initiate a respectful conversation about gender identity, I don't begin it by addressing religious views about how trans people are evil. I begin by talking about definitions, the modern history of transness, passing, discrimination, etc.

Those who are at the, "But transness is gayness is evil cuz God!" stage are not ready for a respectful conversation. They are in kindergarten, where the other speakers are in first grade. And there is a time and a place to teach a kindergarten class, but that place isn't in every single first grade class - because if the kindergarten class always takes over the first grade class, where will the first graders go to learn about more advanced topics?

If you are concerned, start a topic. Call it feminism 101. And you deal nicely with everyone.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:
You know, I read the last 3 pages and saw all the venom being spewed at Guest.

I've never had to pleasure? of dealing with him but I have to ask you, why are you letting him drag you down to his level?

If you want him to leave, ignore him. Just completely shut him out, act as if his posts don't even exist. Nothing hurts more than total isolation, except being all alone in a crowd. Let him say whatever he wants, just pretend he doesn't even exist.

He'll leave on his own eventually. But so long as you respond, in ANY fashion, he's getting a reaction, he's getting attention, he's getting what he wants.


less polite alternative to Sam: thanks for the fucking advice, internet dad. It is certainly nothing we've ever heard before. Truly, you are a font of wisdom.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for being patient with me. my thinking has been so muddled and I've been so withdrawn into myself from pain and narcotics for so long that it's as if I forgotten how to relate to people. now that I am clearheaded again it's like I'm having to rebuild by identity, sense of self, and worldview from scratch. I've been hyper-rationalizing everything to myself for so long that, added with dealing with some blunted affect, I can't seem to accept why anyone would think or act in any way that I consider irrational.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It happens. I hope it's a little more clear, at any rate.

Sometimes it's hard to tell rationally angry from irrationally angry, too, just to add a whole new layer of complexity.

I have the tendency to take breaks and hide from issues for a while to sort of regroup and attempt to avoid saying things I'll regret. It doesn't always work but it helps. Sometimes people don't have the luxury of avoiding these issues though, so they're just bombarded with it all of the time. That would make it even harder to keep a cool head.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arthain wrote:

P.S.
I'm not even going to START on the number of cases that started out consensual, and this means being coherent enough to give consent, first and later on the female turned around and decided she was 'raped' after the fact. In a he said/she said situation, the female always wins in the court of law and they know it. At least they do where I live anyways.



Why would you consider yourself intelligent enough to dictate how "we" should treat guest and still post something you have to realize is going to get you called a sexist shit?
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