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A Respectful Conversation about Rape Culture
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
Posts: 184

PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what about the many cultures where public nudity was accepted and no one thought anything of it. Were they really violating each others rights all along and just didn't know it?
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allow me to ask the same question in reverse: what about the many cultures where clothing has been the norm and nudity has been deemed shocking? Have they been violating naturists' rights all along?

I think the same answer applies to both of our queries: community standards are a legitimate source of the definitions and limits of rights, both for the individual and for the community in which the individual lives. In fact, in the absence of statute and of court precedent, community standards are the basis to which judges, lawmakers, and lawyers have to turn for guidance in their decisions. I don't see that it makes much difference if we substitute "village elders," "tribal leaders," or "druids" for "judges, lawmakers, and lawyers;" those charged by the community with defining right and wrong for the community must ultimately look to the community for the bases of their decisions.
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Tekii



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never made the claim that naturists had the right to be naked though so I'm not sure why that question would matter?

I myself don't think there's anything inherently sexual about nudity but I have more problems with the double standards of these laws then the laws themselves. I find it very frustrating that in many places men can go shirtless almost anywhere but women who do are likely to be charged with indecent exposure despite there being no difference between the two. Either everyone has to keep their shirts on or no one has to keep their shirts on.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trans women who have had top surgery can go out bare chested in public. Not sure if this is different for trans women who have had their birth certificate and ID changed.

I tried finding a good article about this, but there were none to be found, so you get this one:

http://www.dallasvoice.com/gay-group-criticizes-transgender-women-for-going-topless-on-delaware-beach-1017361.html
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tekii wrote:
I never made the claim that naturists had the right to be naked though so I'm not sure why that question would matter?

I myself don't think there's anything inherently sexual about nudity but I have more problems with the double standards of these laws then the laws themselves. I find it very frustrating that in many places men can go shirtless almost anywhere but women who do are likely to be charged with indecent exposure despite there being no difference between the two. Either everyone has to keep their shirts on or no one has to keep their shirts on.

It's a sort of a way of testing a question for... what? Validity? Symmetry? Fairness? Justice?

I fear I'm going to have to beg your indulgence, again; just got out of rehearsal, and I'm pretty wiped out. I might not make a lot of sense, in this post.

Basically, the idea is: try turning a new question around in some dimension; the result sometimes points out an answer for both questions. It can also point out a double standard: "Can men run around topless without infringing public indecency laws? / Can women run around topless without infringing public indecency laws?" When the same answer can't serve both questions, there's generally a double standard being applied.

Regarding running around topless, I'm sure somebody would try to defend that double standard by pointing to anatomical differences between men and women. I won't try to do so, though. I'm not up to the challenge, tonight, and, even if I were, that sounds to me like a pretty weak and lame excuse to start with.

Are we bodies, or are we minds? O-kay, yes, we're both. But I use my mind for a hell of a lot more than I use my body, even though I'm no slouch when it comes to physical labor. I want to be known by my mind, and I think the world would be a better place if we could all shift our perspectives so as to see other people's minds as more prevalent--more of what makes them, them--than their bodies. Perhaps, then, double standards like this one would just wither away.

But, meanwhile, in the world in which we actually have to live on a daily basis, there are double standards. Even I suffer from them; I would be shocked to see a woman running around topless, and I probably wouldn't be able to meet her eyes in conversation. I can't justify it or defend it--particularly not when I'm almost falling asleep over my keyboard--but I won't lie and claim I'd be totally nonchalant in such a situation, either.

Anyone have a good reason for double standards that exist like the one Tekii has pointed out?
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing with boobies is that you get used to them. Western culture should get more used to boobies in a non-sexual environment in my opinion, it'll probably help with a lot of issues in regards to body image and rape culture.

As someone owning a pair, it is pretty hard to show them in public to start with, and if you are all nervous about it men will get even more nervous around you too. However with time it's possible to relax and most men appear to be able to relax around casual boobies too. It's just a matter of habit and some adjustments to the "BOOBS = SEX" which western culture tries to hardwire into us.

(just for clarification I'm not a lunatic, nudist or Femen activist, I just like not having tanning lines)
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Everyone should go for a couple of art lessons where they have to draw a nude person. Within 10 minutes you can't even see it sexually anymore - it's all lines and figures. I've formed a terrible habit of analyzing a drawn nude when I see it - instead of ooh sexy it's: is this proportionate? xP
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
Everyone should go for a couple of art lessons where they have to draw a nude person. Within 10 minutes you can't even see it sexually anymore - it's all lines and figures. I've formed a terrible habit of analyzing a drawn nude when I see it - instead of ooh sexy it's: is this proportionate? xP


I would rather not. As a lefty who can't even draw a straight line, I'd get table-flippingly angry at my illegible smudges after 10 minutes!
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Everyone should go for a couple of art lessons where they have to draw a nude person. Within 10 minutes you can't even see it sexually anymore - it's all lines and figures. I've formed a terrible habit of analyzing a drawn nude when I see it - instead of ooh sexy it's: is this proportionate? xP


I would rather not. As a lefty who can't even draw a straight line, I'd get table-flippingly angry at my illegible smudges after 10 minutes!


Haha! I had that the first lesson as well, but a good art teacher lets you try a lot of odd things that actually help you out a lot. One assignment we had was drawing... without our hands. Everyone bound pencils and brushes to their feet, elbows and knees. xD
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani, I share your point of view of getting used to boobies. I've been in naturist beachs a few times and, weird as it is, with all the people full nude nudity loses significance. Still...

Yrvani wrote:
It's just a matter of habit and some adjustments to the "BOOBS = SEX" which western culture tries to hardwire into us.


Western cultures in contraposition of what? Eastern cultures are worst as us with the skin-showing thing...
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
Western cultures in contraposition of what? Eastern cultures are worst as us with the skin-showing thing...


Sorry for the misconception Arkhron, didn't mean it in any contraposition at all Smile Just named my own culture as a clarification as where I'm coming from.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Everyone should go for a couple of art lessons where they have to draw a nude person. Within 10 minutes you can't even see it sexually anymore - it's all lines and figures. I've formed a terrible habit of analyzing a drawn nude when I see it - instead of ooh sexy it's: is this proportionate? xP


I would rather not. As a lefty who can't even draw a straight line, I'd get table-flippingly angry at my illegible smudges after 10 minutes!


Being able to draw a straight line is not something most artists need to know, because we have rulers.

Drawing isn't an innate talent that some have and others an ever have. If you practice and study, then you too can draw. Moght take a year or more, though.

This is a good pose drawing tool for any interested people, with choice of nudity or clothing - http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6082

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
This is a good pose drawing tool for any interested people, with choice of nudity or clothing - http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/

*Completely oblivious to the actual conversation*

OH MY GOD this page is fantastic! Thanks, stripeypants!
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Felgraf wrote:
Yinello wrote:
Everyone should go for a couple of art lessons where they have to draw a nude person. Within 10 minutes you can't even see it sexually anymore - it's all lines and figures. I've formed a terrible habit of analyzing a drawn nude when I see it - instead of ooh sexy it's: is this proportionate? xP


I would rather not. As a lefty who can't even draw a straight line, I'd get table-flippingly angry at my illegible smudges after 10 minutes!


Being able to draw a straight line is not something most artists need to know, because we have rulers.

Drawing isn't an innate talent that some have and others an ever have. If you practice and study, then you too can draw. Moght take a year or more, though.

This is a good pose drawing tool for any interested people, with choice of nudity or clothing - http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/


Fair enough. I have been told that I have a small wiring problem (dyspraxia), though I did go to a lot of occupational therapy as a kid to help deal with it. At least on the "Coliding with things while moving/tripping over things I should trip over" side. I never did develop proper pencil grip, though.
(On the flip side, I think constantly dealing with that HAS given me ninja like reflexes, so that's something!)
Perhaps when I have time and focus, I'll work on that. I suspect I would get easily frustrated, but one never knows!
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6082

PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
This is a good pose drawing tool for any interested people, with choice of nudity or clothing - http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/

*Completely oblivious to the actual conversation*

OH MY GOD this page is fantastic! Thanks, stripeypants!

OMG THERE IS AN ANIMAL SETTING, TOO. This is like the link that keeps on giving.
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