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A Respectful Conversation about Rape Culture
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
Over and over again I hear the mantra that "rape is not about sex," and I just can't bring myself to believe it.


it does seem nonsensical at times - and then you read about some elderly woman getting raped by someone breaking into her home, or a woman in a coma getting raped, or something like that, and it's pretty clear it's not because some guy was overstimulated by the way she dressed.

it may be a sexual act, but it's pretty perverted sex, because you are doing it with someone who is either terrified of you, or incapable of expressing an opinion. it strikes me that if it really all about sex, it would be better to just find a prostitute - she's at least got some level of willingness to participate.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are different types of rape and different motivations behind them. the drunken date rapes and rapes where coercion, cajoling, and manipulation are used (usually in high school and college) tend to be more about sex and the rapist's reputation with women. violent date rapes, spousal rapes, and stranger rapes are more about power, control, dominance, and misogyny. in most cases there is going to be some combination of motives. think of incidents being plotted on a graph; as the violence of the act increases the degree to which sex is the motivation decreases. prison rapes obviously have little to no sexual motivation.
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Sam



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
prison rapes obviously have little to no sexual motivation.


I would contest that, actually. It's not like the desire for sexual pleasure is completely and conspicuously absent in the coercive prison sexuality that leads to endemic rape.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
Yinello wrote:
1 out of 3 women


source?


http://www.dps.siu.edu/cp_sexual_assault.htm

Whoops it says 1 out of 4, for some reason the number 3 stuck in my head. Still an unacceptable number.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
prison rapes obviously have little to no sexual motivation.


I would contest that, actually. It's not like the desire for sexual pleasure is completely and conspicuously absent in the coercive prison sexuality that leads to endemic rape.


yeah, I don't know why I used such a definitive phrasing, it's really not like me. I usually err the other way and hedge my statements almost to the point of meaninglessness.
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Kilgore



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
prison rapes obviously have little to no sexual motivation.


I would contest that, actually. It's not like the desire for sexual pleasure is completely and conspicuously absent in the coercive prison sexuality that leads to endemic rape.


Not to pile on, but I'd go even further than this. The fact that male on male rape seems to be primarily committed by heterosexual men who find themselves in an environment where their access to women is eliminated or curtailed (in prison or, to a lesser extent, the military) implies to me that a desire to have sex is a pretty huge part of the motivation for the crime.

mouse wrote:
Kilgore wrote:
Over and over again I hear the mantra that "rape is not about sex," and I just can't bring myself to believe it.



it does seem nonsensical at times - and then you read about some elderly woman getting raped by someone breaking into her home, or a woman in a coma getting raped, or something like that, and it's pretty clear it's not because some guy was overstimulated by the way she dressed.

it may be a sexual act, but it's pretty perverted sex, because you are doing it with someone who is either terrified of you, or incapable of expressing an opinion. it strikes me that if it really all about sex, it would be better to just find a prostitute - she's at least got some level of willingness to participate.


I don't think you can rule out the desire to have sex as a significant motivation for even the most bizarre-seeming rape. You are, after all, talking about members of a sex that occasionally suffers severe penile injury while trying to masturbate with vacuum cleaners (NOTE: don't click on that link if you aren't prepared to deal with the pictures).

But I take what is, I think, your larger point, which is that for at least some rapists the fact that they are inflicting themselves on an unwilling victim is more important than the gratification they receive from any of the things we think of as components of normal, healthy sexual gratification (like being physically attracted to your partner). For those people, maybe it is accurate to say that rape is really about power.

The problem I have with extrapolating from that to the blanket statement "Rape is about power, not sex" is that it seems to me to be contrary to the project of convincing people that stranger rape is not the most prevalent type of rape.
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TIAB



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That particular wording is problematic for a number of reasons. It's stated in absolute terms which rarely works, but also, how do you define sex in that statement? We are talking primarily about male aggressors here and generally speaking, men have orgasms far more frequently than they have sex. So do we take sex to mean having an orgasm with someone else, or simply the sexual impulse to have an orgasm? I've always understood that mantra to mean that in the forceful rapes, the aggressor is far more motivated by exerting control than achieving orgasm, with or without someone else present.

Which makes me wonder, are there events in which someone capable of forceful rape gets the gratification of exerting control without someone else being a victim, or even involved?

I think where the mantra falls completely flat are cases of date rape. Those seem to be almost completely motivated by sex and very little to do with control.
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CalmBlueSea



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kilgore wrote:
You are, after all, talking about members of a sex that occasionally suffers severe penile injury while trying to masturbate with vacuum cleaners (NOTE: don't click on that link if you aren't prepared to deal with the pictures).


Oh, god, that was painful to look at. To be fair to all those people, I see where the idea might come from. And I've seen amateur porn of women doing that without injury(not to say it was entirely safe for them or anything).
Though, 2-B looked, at a glance, like it was smoking a cigarette.Forgive me father, for I have sinned.

TIAB wrote:
Posted: Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:44 pm Post subject:
That particular wording is problematic for a number of reasons. It's stated in absolute terms which rarely works, but also, how do you define sex in that statement? We are talking primarily about male aggressors here and generally speaking, men have orgasms far more frequently than they have sex. So do we take sex to mean having an orgasm with someone else, or simply the sexual impulse to have an orgasm? I've always understood that mantra to mean that in the forceful rapes, the aggressor is far more motivated by exerting control than achieving orgasm, with or without someone else present.


I don't think so. It seems the point of 'facials/money shots' in porn is, mostly, exactly that; exerting power by achieving orgasm.

EDIT: THERE WAS ANOTHER THING HERE, BUT IT WAS A SILLY, STUPID MISUNDERSTANDING.

Sorry about that.


Last edited by CalmBlueSea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:54 am; edited 2 times in total
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry... did you just say that jacking off on someone who is asleep is victimless?
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TIAB



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think equating porn to rape supports any point... ever.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bonus points for creepiest way to enter the conversation, though.
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CalmBlueSea



Joined: 12 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 4:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, sorry about that, I TOTALLY read that section wrong. I'm just gonna retract that and hope you all actually get that I misunderstood.

(And avoid posting in THIS thread again.)

EDIT: Another self-correction
TIAB wrote:
I don't think equating porn to rape supports any point... ever.


Sorry about that. I was trying to extrapolate the idea into rape culture in general, but didn't make that clear. And it wouldn't have been relevant anyway, in the context of the conversation prior.

I really need to get better at this.


Last edited by CalmBlueSea on Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:34 am; edited 2 times in total
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Lasairfiona



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe owning up to stupid in a non creepy manner is actually good form - please feel free to continue posting. Downright refreshing.
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Black Kitty



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totally believe that porn's treatment of women and "bottoms" in general is a massive contributing factor to rape culture.
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Samsally



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lasairfiona wrote:
I believe owning up to stupid in a non creepy manner is actually good form - please feel free to continue posting. Downright refreshing.

I second this. Keep trying, you'll get better.
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