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A Respectful Conversation about Rape Culture
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Black Kitty



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 704
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
The thing with boobies is that you get used to them. Western culture should get more used to boobies in a non-sexual environment in my opinion, it'll probably help with a lot of issues in regards to body image and rape culture.

As someone owning a pair, it is pretty hard to show them in public to start with, and if you are all nervous about it men will get even more nervous around you too. However with time it's possible to relax and most men appear to be able to relax around casual boobies too. It's just a matter of habit and some adjustments to the "BOOBS = SEX" which western culture tries to hardwire into us.

(just for clarification I'm not a lunatic, nudist or Femen activist, I just like not having tanning lines)


Exactly. Particularly your comment about non-sexual nudity helping with body image and rape culture. I've long been a proponent of body acceptance. I definitely believe that being able to see every person on the street (mind AND body, because our existence is a balance of both, bitflipper), as a human creatures with very individual natural features and flaws would help people accept themselves more, remove people's ability to separate mind from body and objectify a person for their physical appearance, and bolster society's empathy towards each other in general.

And just for clarification, Yrvani, I don't think that makes you a lunatic, but I'm pretty sure you might be a naturist. And really, ask any sane person the right questions, and you'll find that almost everyone is a feminist. I actually respect you a lot for such a balanced statement, and don't think labeling your beliefs would remove any respectability from your view point. Actually, it might help to have articulate people like you speaking for naturism and feminism. The extremist "loonies" you'll find in any belief system can pretty easily ruin the public image of the rest of us.
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bitflipper



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Kitty wrote:
(mind AND body, because our existence is a balance of both, bitflipper)

Oh, I don't dispute that in the least; I've just never been sure that the balance point is at 50-50. ('Course, this is the opinion of a guy who, as a kid, used to fantasize he was Vulcan instead of human; for reasons I'm still not fully aware of or fully understand, I've always wanted to see myself as cerebral.)

Thinking about it, I come to the realization that the balance point may be--and probably is--different for every individual.
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Kitty wrote:
And just for clarification, Yrvani, I don't think that makes you a lunatic, but I'm pretty sure you might be a naturist. And really, ask any sane person the right questions, and you'll find that almost everyone is a feminist. I actually respect you a lot for such a balanced statement, and don't think labeling your beliefs would remove any respectability from your view point. Actually, it might help to have articulate people like you speaking for naturism and feminism. The extremist "loonies" you'll find in any belief system can pretty easily ruin the public image of the rest of us.


Naturist may well work, but a little bit too uncomfortable still. With time maybe.. Smile

I am a feminist, loud and clear. However, I am not a Femen activist! I do support their cause (when they don't do silly stuff which they to be fair do a lot of), but am too much of a coward to join rallys or post my boobies on facebook. If you don't know them already, you should visit http://femen.org/ if not only to see lots of de-sexualised boobies.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 02, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Samsally wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
This is a good pose drawing tool for any interested people, with choice of nudity or clothing - http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/

*Completely oblivious to the actual conversation*

OH MY GOD this page is fantastic! Thanks, stripeypants!

OMG THERE IS AN ANIMAL SETTING, TOO. This is like the link that keeps on giving.


That's why I spread it anywhere that it is even slightly applicable. I can never get down to any place with live models, so this has been super useful.
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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What bugs me about victim blaming is how narrow-sighted it is. Yes, I'm side-stepping the issue of the morality of it and focusing on the practicality of it. If we focus on what the victim could have done differently, at best they could have prevented the crime from happening to them, not someone else. It ignores the actual problem, that someone is out there creating victims. It ignores the cause.
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TIAB wrote:
What bugs me about victim blaming is how narrow-sighted it is. Yes, I'm side-stepping the issue of the morality of it and focusing on the practicality of it. If we focus on what the victim could have done differently, at best they could have prevented the crime from happening to them, not someone else. It ignores the actual problem, that someone is out there creating victims. It ignores the cause.


would it be possible to mention methods of avoiding further victimization on the individual level without victim blaming? are the concepts mutually exclusive?

Like, if I said "it sucks that you have to do X to be safe and its not your fault and its unfair to you, but I don't want you to die because I want you to live to see a time where you don't have to do X, so if you want to know what I would do if I were you, I would do X, also see you at the LETS STOP THE THING THAT PUTS US IN A POSITION WHERE WE DO X OR DIE rally on thursday!"

would that still be victim blaming?
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's best if people stopped saying what the victim should do and ask what they can do to help. If someone gets attacked in an alleyway, is it best to set up cameras? If a group of boys are harassing women for wearing short skirts, should we host seminars to educate people? If a taxi driver assaults someone, how fast will the company take action?

Turn the ordeal around. Instead of asking what the victim did, ask yourself and everyone else what we failed to do.

There's nothing the victim can do to truly stop offenders from hurting more people because they are only one person. Telling victims on how to wear their clothes, where to go, what to do doesn't change society and its offenders at all. History has proven over and over that changing a victim's actions, looks or otherwise will not stop offenders. It's why I'm convinced that anything that puts weight on victims is instantly redundant and considered victim blaming (which is bad).

Society needs to wake up and collectively work together to punish offenders, not just brush it off on one person.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
TIAB wrote:
What bugs me about victim blaming is how narrow-sighted it is. Yes, I'm side-stepping the issue of the morality of it and focusing on the practicality of it. If we focus on what the victim could have done differently, at best they could have prevented the crime from happening to them, not someone else. It ignores the actual problem, that someone is out there creating victims. It ignores the cause.


would it be possible to mention methods of avoiding further victimization on the individual level without victim blaming? are the concepts mutually exclusive?

Like, if I said "it sucks that you have to do X to be safe and its not your fault and its unfair to you, but I don't want you to die because I want you to live to see a time where you don't have to do X, so if you want to know what I would do if I were you, I would do X, also see you at the LETS STOP THE THING THAT PUTS US IN A POSITION WHERE WE DO X OR DIE rally on thursday!"

would that still be victim blaming?


If you don't blame the person who doesn't or can't use the precautions for what happened, rather than the perpetrator, I think that's not victim blaming.
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Thenadathor



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:

If you don't blame the person who doesn't or can't use the precautions for what happened, rather than the perpetrator, I think that's not victim blaming.


okay cool. I think there is often miscommunication in this area. so, you can suggest precautions the victim can take without blaming them, as long as the suggestions are presented in a way that clearly indicate the perpetrator is the problem.

I actually think this particular point is core to a lot of people who dont actually believe in victim-blaming but are seen as doing so unintentionally.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

If you don't blame the person who doesn't or can't use the precautions for what happened, rather than the perpetrator, I think that's not victim blaming.


okay cool. I think there is often miscommunication in this area. so, you can suggest precautions the victim can take without blaming them, as long as the suggestions are presented in a way that clearly indicate the perpetrator is the problem.

I actually think this particular point is core to a lot of people who dont actually believe in victim-blaming but are seen as doing so unintentionally.


No, I think it is actually that a lot of people blame victims without realizing it. As in, they mean to give good advice, and they don't intend to say the victim is a horrible person - but all their commentary ends up revolving around what the victim failed to do, and how the victim 'should have just known it was going to happen' and the victim 'shouldn't be surprised.'

There are precautions that can be taken to avoid attacks (sometimes), but the victim should still not be blamed even if they didn't take all the precautions - because it is not their fault that an attacker was out there ready to prey on them. And you can suggest things to help in the future, but you really need to avoid saying, "Hey, this was your fault" which is pretty much the same as "You're asking for it."

Yes, everyone is the master of their own actions and they need to own up to their choices. But the dominant narrative is that any time a woman is attacked, it is because she provoked the attack. Women are taught to avoid being raped, while men aren't taught not to rape. Until this situation changes, suggesting that the victim caused the problem, whether or not you understand the attacker chose to attack, you contribute to the idea that the victim is really at fault here.
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Black Kitty



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a topic I'd like to offer for discussion - the idea that our culture breeds an attitude of dominion over other people's bodies.

There's a tradition of publicly scrutinizing models and celebrities for their appearance. People watch shows and movies and comment, "Oh god, her teeth are fugly," or "Jesus, he needs a shave." There are tv shows and magazines whose sole purpose is to talk about other people's "baby bumps," pregnancy weight, and beach looks.

This solidifies this idea that you have a right to treat someone a certain way because of their appearance. That you have a right to judge and comment upon someone's weight, clothes, makeup, musculature, regardless of their feelings. That other people's appearance justifies your actions, and that their feelings don't matter, because after all, they're just some anonymous person that you'll never meet. But this mentality can seep into all of our interactions. I see it daily, when I walk through the city and get passing comments on my appearance, or am honked at on the street.

Here's the example that got me thinking about this. Even though the public's comments seem to be supportive of his look, they still indicate that the viewer has some right to comment upon what he should/shouldn't be doing with his body.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/this-is-what-that-hot-calvin-klein-model-from-the-early-2000

Yes, freedom of speech and all, but it's just obnoxious that anyone would choose to exercise that freedom in such a frivolous and negative pursuit. It harms everyone, and contributes negatively to society in so many ways.
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TIAB



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think a large part of the issue is a result of our emphasis on individuality. There are countless cases in western culture, not just American, where individuals going "against the grain" and standing out are idolized. We villify conformity. The emphasis on individuality isn't inherently bad, but it it pushes people towards a very egocentric view of the world. We are always thinking in terms relative to how we are affected. When individuality is the highest priority, it can make it difficult to even think about other people as people as opposed to aspects of ourselves. We seek to satisfy our own individual desires and when something prevents or inhibits our ability to do so we feel threatened. Other people can be seen as obstacles at worst or at the very least competition.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Black Kitty wrote:
Yrvani wrote:
The thing with boobies is that you get used to them. Western culture should get more used to boobies in a non-sexual environment in my opinion, it'll probably help with a lot of issues in regards to body image and rape culture.

As someone owning a pair, it is pretty hard to show them in public to start with, and if you are all nervous about it men will get even more nervous around you too. However with time it's possible to relax and most men appear to be able to relax around casual boobies too. It's just a matter of habit and some adjustments to the "BOOBS = SEX" which western culture tries to hardwire into us.

(just for clarification I'm not a lunatic, nudist or Femen activist, I just like not having tanning lines)


Exactly. Particularly your comment about non-sexual nudity helping with body image and rape culture. I've long been a proponent of body acceptance. I definitely believe that being able to see every person on the street (mind AND body, because our existence is a balance of both, bitflipper), as a human creatures with very individual natural features and flaws would help people accept themselves more, remove people's ability to separate mind from body and objectify a person for their physical appearance, and bolster society's empathy towards each other in general.

And just for clarification, Yrvani, I don't think that makes you a lunatic, but I'm pretty sure you might be a naturist. And really, ask any sane person the right questions, and you'll find that almost everyone is a feminist. I actually respect you a lot for such a balanced statement, and don't think labeling your beliefs would remove any respectability from your view point. Actually, it might help to have articulate people like you speaking for naturism and feminism. The extremist "loonies" you'll find in any belief system can pretty easily ruin the public image of the rest of us.


Ok so boobs. Here's an interesting bit on why men love them from a physiological standpoint: http://news.yahoo.com/theory-why-men-love-breasts-223029914.html

But there's this ignorant behavior often displayed by stupid, usually younger women and girls, that bothers me. I'm trying to think how to approach this so I'm not misunderstood. Now I'm not saying anyone has a right to stare at anyone else in a way that makes them feels uncomfortable nor does anyone have any reason to harass someone unprovoked. But having really big boobs, like borderline or even legitimate macromastsia, is going to attract people's attention, plain an simple. I'd posit any extreme physical trait (being really tall, really short, really fat, having a really long beard, hair down to the floor, etc.) is going to attract attention. Humans notice differences, it's how we work. Now it's not fair and it sucks and its a legitimate gripe but it's how life goes.

Now my issue is when same said girl with really big boobs then dresses in a manner that causes her boobs to standout even more and then complains that people are staring at her boobs. Sigh . . . it's so exasperating I can't even get angry. Back when I was younger, my one friend Kymmy summed it up best during a conversation about the types of women and girls I'm talking about. Kymmy was only 5' 0" and had DDD boobs (she'd bitch about bra shopping regularly, so if you were her friend this was just something you knew) and as she put it "If I don't want people to stare at my boobs, I'm not going to show them off. It'd be like a guy with an 8-inch long limp dick walking around in a speedo and wondering why people were staring at his crotch." I honestly don't think all cases, or even a large majority of cases, of people staring in these circumstances has anything to do with any sort of sexuality related issue. I think it's simply that if you make yourself stand out you're going to attract attention.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you have giant boobs, they stand out no matter what you do, and people stare whether you've got them covered up.
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Arkhron



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A bit off from the actual topic of the threat, sorry, but: have you seen this movie? https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_invisible_war/ ?

Is a representative depiction of the rape culture in the military? Should I see it?
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