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Rationally speaking... 4/2
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Miss Magenta



Joined: 09 Jun 2011
Posts: 1841
Location: im probably asleep right now

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Istancow wrote:
Well, then, I'll just go ahead and interject a few random, ill-informed opinions.


Ooh!! Ooh!! Make one up about me!! :D
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

How much about feminism and its history have you studied? You are calling yourself a feminist now, so I would like to know how you came to be one.


Do I have to be your feminist to be feminist, most third wave feminists have gone away from being worried about pornography, they still want equality, and while that is a good fight, I don't think it should be the basis of the movement and what fought for the most...

I guess I'm an Non-denominational Feminist.


I am trying to engage with you to find out things like how you came upon feminism, and what you have studied. This isn't any sort of trick question. I'm trying to learn. Engage with me.


Well, Christianity, even though men are considered the head of the household, women hold power as well, they are our counselors, providing the information that we need to come with a decision. Their important to us. I believe they are equal in fact, God used women as Judges, Prophets, and they took care of the property and decided the business deals. In pretty much everything they were equal. Thus I feel they should be treated as equals today as well.

That's kinda where I get women should be treated equally, it may explain a lot of things though. I know my religion gets a lot of flak for the rules others get from their interpretation of our religious book. But just like there are those certain Baptists, there are normal people too.


I'm also a little bit curious: How much of feminist history/women's rights have you studied? Do you know who Elizabeth Cady Stanton was? Do you know what year it was made illegal in any of the United States for a man to rape his wife? How many women who are already mothers have abortions?

There will be a quiz on Friday. Razz
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mouse"]
Gibson22 wrote:


but i seem to remember having this discussion with you before, about how all the professional discrepancies between men and women have to do with men being all ambitious, and women preferring to marry someone who will take care of them while they stay home and make babies. in fact, i think we had it just before you disappeared - i guess, retired to your man-cave to drink hot cocoa.

hopefully this is enough of a storm to keep you there for another 3 or 4 months. you might want to take a few minutes to do a little reading this time. some history of the women's movement, perhaps?


D'aw! You remembered me! I'm so touched! ^_^
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Istancow



Joined: 30 Jan 2013
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Location: Chamber of the House of Lords in the Palace of Westminister

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
Ooh!! Ooh!! Make one up about me!! Very Happy


Would you consider yourself more of a "Hot Magenta" type, or a "Shocking Pink" type? Because I've always thought you were more a "Purple Pizazz" type, but now I'm not sur-I-AM-RUDELY-INTERRUPTING-MYSELF-BECAUSE-SEX-AND-MUSHU!!!
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

khan wrote:
I acknowledge your view, but i must state we never saw it leave. If you ever watched old american cartoons, the male heart pounds visibly when lusting. He could thus still be battering a heart he might prefer to be kind to, for logical reasons. Is that really so bad?

In this comic, hearts have departed chests many times; it's happened to Slick almost regularly. It stands to reason that in this case, Rational Man is beating up his own heart because it felt an emotion. It makes no sense to presume that the heart belongs to somebody else.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Rothide wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

How much about feminism and its history have you studied? You are calling yourself a feminist now, so I would like to know how you came to be one.


Do I have to be your feminist to be feminist, most third wave feminists have gone away from being worried about pornography, they still want equality, and while that is a good fight, I don't think it should be the basis of the movement and what fought for the most...

I guess I'm an Non-denominational Feminist.


I am trying to engage with you to find out things like how you came upon feminism, and what you have studied. This isn't any sort of trick question. I'm trying to learn. Engage with me.


Well, Christianity, even though men are considered the head of the household, women hold power as well, they are our counselors, providing the information that we need to come with a decision. Their important to us. I believe they are equal in fact, God used women as Judges, Prophets, and they took care of the property and decided the business deals. In pretty much everything they were equal. Thus I feel they should be treated as equals today as well.

That's kinda where I get women should be treated equally, it may explain a lot of things though. I know my religion gets a lot of flak for the rules others get from their interpretation of our religious book. But just like there are those certain Baptists, there are normal people too.


I'm also a little bit curious: How much of feminist history/women's rights have you studied? Do you know who Elizabeth Cady Stanton was? Do you know what year it was made illegal in any of the United States for a man to rape his wife? How many women who are already mothers have abortions?

There will be a quiz on Friday. Razz


I will admit, I never studied it. This seemed more or less common sense. Woman says no, don't do it (unless both agreed before that no means yes and its role playing, and a safe word that means NO). Rape was always a crime, even when you were married to a woman if she didn't want it you don't force it on her (even if it wouldn't be considered rape that abuse right there damnit). As for abortions, I'm not touching that, too much heat and as some feminists have said "I don't have the say in the matter".

Edit: As for voting, well logically yes, you should have a vote for who's going to be the one in charge of you and making the rules you must live by. Everyone should have that right.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
I will admit, I never studied it. This seemed more or less common sense. Woman says no, don't do it (unless both agreed before that no means yes and its role playing, and a safe word that means NO). Rape was always a crime, even when you were married to a woman if she didn't want it you don't force it on her (even if it wouldn't be considered rape that abuse right there damnit). As for abortions, I'm not touching that, too much heat and as some feminists have said "I don't have the say in the matter".


Marital rape was not a crime in the United States until the mid-seventies, and that was only the beginning of a state-by-state process. Even now, a spouse will get a lesser punishment for raping someone than a stranger will in some areas.

61% of women who get abortions already have children. That's slightly more than 3/5.

And here's the Wikipedia article on Elizabeth Cady Stanton.

Please read up a little bit on issues regarding equality. We would love to have you as our ally. Always room for more, y'know.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Rothide wrote:
I will admit, I never studied it. This seemed more or less common sense. Woman says no, don't do it (unless both agreed before that no means yes and its role playing, and a safe word that means NO). Rape was always a crime, even when you were married to a woman if she didn't want it you don't force it on her (even if it wouldn't be considered rape that abuse right there damnit). As for abortions, I'm not touching that, too much heat and as some feminists have said "I don't have the say in the matter".


Marital rape was not a crime in the United States until the mid-seventies, and that was only the beginning of a state-by-state process. Even now, a spouse will get a lesser punishment for raping someone than a stranger will in some areas.

61% of women who get abortions already have children. That's slightly more than 3/5.

And here's the Wikipedia article on Elizabeth Cady Stanton.

Please read up a little bit on issues regarding equality. We would love to have you as our ally. Always room for more, y'know.


I see this, but then think of other issues that stem from this... like, what else is going on in that household if sex in marriage is considerd rape, is it abuse, or being used as legal strength for a divorce, or is it just plain old rape. For abortions, why wouldn't money be saved aside for counterceptives, yes the pills expensive but I can buy condoms for about 10 bucks, or even a diaphram, or even go in and have tubes tied or... that male version of tubes tide... I guess the could be single mothers, that could explain it, and wow that's rough...

See that's probably my problem, I start thinking of the variables, rather than the main idea.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
I see this, but then think of other issues that stem from this... like, what else is going on in that household if sex in marriage is considerd rape, is it abuse, or being used as legal strength for a divorce, or is it just plain old rape. For abortions, why wouldn't money be saved aside for counterceptives, yes the pills expensive but I can buy condoms for about 10 bucks, or even a diaphram, or even go in and have tubes tied or... that male version of tubes tide... I guess the could be single mothers, that could explain it, and wow that's rough...

See that's probably my problem, I start thinking of the variables, rather than the main idea.


Sex in marriage isn't considered rape. Rape in marriage is considered rape.

People need abortions for a lot of different reasons. For example, birth control isn't perfect. Someone can be using birth control correctly and still manage to get pregnant, which is when abortion becomes an option. This can also happen despite getting your tubes tied, interestingly enough (though that's rare, from how I understand it).

If you read the link I gave you, only 8% of women who get abortions have never used birth control. When I asked you to read, it was an actual suggestion. Looking over these resources will clear up a lot of misconceptions and answer a lot of the questions that you seem to have.
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Arkhron wrote:
Men and patriarchy aren't interchangeable.


Would you mind if I put this in my signature? It's an important thing to keep in mind, and I think a lot of people sometimes forget it.


Of course not! Isn't mine either, If I remember correctly it belongs to Miss Magenta Very Happy

Istancow wrote:
Arkhron wrote:


I don't understand that! Help?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONXp-vpE9eU

The first comment I looked at from you on this thread was in response to monkey's response to bitflipper, which you ended with the interrogative, "Why?"

from which my mind jumped through many strange and silly hoops and I decided to sing "Yesterday" to you.

All my troubles seemed so faaaar awaaaaay
now I need a place to hiiiide awaaaay oh I belieeeeve in yesterdaaaaaay


Aw, that's very nice! ^^
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Arkhron wrote:
Men and patriarchy aren't interchangeable.


Would you mind if I put this in my signature? It's an important thing to keep in mind, and I think a lot of people sometimes forget it.


Of course not! Isn't mine either, If I remember correctly it belongs to Miss Magenta Very Happy


Then I should thank you for making me aware of it and Miss Magenta for making you aware of it. <3
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Rothide wrote:
I see this, but then think of other issues that stem from this... like, what else is going on in that household if sex in marriage is considerd rape, is it abuse, or being used as legal strength for a divorce, or is it just plain old rape. For abortions, why wouldn't money be saved aside for counterceptives, yes the pills expensive but I can buy condoms for about 10 bucks, or even a diaphram, or even go in and have tubes tied or... that male version of tubes tide... I guess the could be single mothers, that could explain it, and wow that's rough...

See that's probably my problem, I start thinking of the variables, rather than the main idea.


Sex in marriage isn't considered rape. Rape in marriage is considered rape.

People need abortions for a lot of different reasons. For example, birth control isn't perfect. Someone can be using birth control correctly and still manage to get pregnant, which is when abortion becomes an option. This can also happen despite getting your tubes tied, interestingly enough (though that's rare, from how I understand it).

If you read the link I gave you, only 8% of women who get abortions have never used birth control. When I asked you to read, it was an actual suggestion. Looking over these resources will clear up a lot of misconceptions and answer a lot of the questions that you seem to have.


But how is rape in marriage brought up, if not defined by one or the other spouse? Rape is rape I will agree, but even consensual sex, if at a later time the women decided it wasn't, is still considered rape.

As for abortion, My beliefs are that all life is holy, no facts or figures will change that, to me, that act is murder, and I do not condone murder of something that never had a chance to do anything before it even had a life. I'm old fashioned I know, but its my belief.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
But how is rape in marriage brought up, if not defined by one or the other spouse? Rape is rape I will agree, but even consensual sex, if at a later time the women decided it wasn't, is still considered rape.

As for abortion, My beliefs are that all life is holy, no facts or figures will change that, to me, that act is murder, and I do not condone murder of something that never had a chance to do anything before it even had a life. I'm old fashioned I know, but its my belief.


You're getting awfully close to "women lie about rape" territory, there.

I'll respect your beliefs as long as you respect mine, which I haven't actually stated yet. I haven't stated them because we aren't talking about beliefs. We're talking about history and statistics.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:

I will admit, I never studied it.


I'll address the other things in a bit, but please tell me: How can you know what feminists want, and what feminism is about if you have never studied it? It is possible to learn via argument, but not if you charge in and shout about what other people believe. If you do that, you can't actually exchange information.

Also, if you have never studied feminism, I don't know why you'd go around saying you're a feminist.

Let's say I've been going around saying all Christians are xenophobic asshats who purposely try to subjugate everyone around them, and have an end goal of bringing about armageddon. Let's say I base this on my limited experience of portrayal of Christians in the media, and a few I've met in person. Then let's say that I announce one day that I am a Christian, just not like all those horrible Christian - and really, why don't you call me a Jesusist since I don't want to be associated with those horrible people.

Then let's say I announce that actually I've never read the bible or anything about the history of Christianity.

What would I sound like to you?
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Rothide wrote:
I see this, but then think of other issues that stem from this... like, what else is going on in that household if sex in marriage is considerd rape, is it abuse, or being used as legal strength for a divorce, or is it just plain old rape. For abortions, why wouldn't money be saved aside for counterceptives, yes the pills expensive but I can buy condoms for about 10 bucks, or even a diaphram, or even go in and have tubes tied or... that male version of tubes tide... I guess the could be single mothers, that could explain it, and wow that's rough...

See that's probably my problem, I start thinking of the variables, rather than the main idea.


Sex in marriage isn't considered rape. Rape in marriage is considered rape.

People need abortions for a lot of different reasons. For example, birth control isn't perfect. Someone can be using birth control correctly and still manage to get pregnant, which is when abortion becomes an option. This can also happen despite getting your tubes tied, interestingly enough (though that's rare, from how I understand it).

If you read the link I gave you, only 8% of women who get abortions have never used birth control. When I asked you to read, it was an actual suggestion. Looking over these resources will clear up a lot of misconceptions and answer a lot of the questions that you seem to have.


But how is rape in marriage brought up, if not defined by one or the other spouse? Rape is rape I will agree, but even consensual sex, if at a later time the women decided it wasn't, is still considered rape.

As for abortion, My beliefs are that all life is holy, no facts or figures will change that, to me, that act is murder, and I do not condone murder of something that never had a chance to do anything before it even had a life. I'm old fashioned I know, but its my belief.


Rape in marriage is brought up by the woman not wanting to have sex, but the man forcing himself on her. This isn't about playing games about "Oh after the fact" consent removal. The laws were, literally, about straight up rape, and until that time period, it was not considered 'possible' to rape a spouse. Because, why,y ou were married to her. So clearly she must be consenting.

That is what this is talking about. That was not illegal until the seventies.

This is not that difficult.
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