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Slightly off-topic: Porn.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:59 pm    Post subject: Slightly off-topic: Porn. Reply with quote

Hey, guys. So I'm totally new and I'm making an off-topic thread. Please don't tar and feather me. And uh, also please don't tar and feather me for what I'm going to ask. I'm trying to learn.

I realize that a lot of porn is very obviously bad. A lot of porn is all about the male gaze and shows disgusting/humiliating/horrible things happening to women, so I understand why that sort of pornography is anti-feminist.

But-- I feel like a less sex-obsessed Squig here-- is there something wrong with porn that's more tasteful in regards to gender equality? I understand that the industry as a whole is mostly the type of porn that I mentioned above, so I can see most of it as being wrong, but I'm less certain about other types.

Just looking for a little education on the subject. I thought this would be a good place to start.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: Slightly off-topic: Porn. Reply with quote

It is against the norm here. You might get a couple of angry shouts. I'm not sure why; some kind of forum etiquette I suppose. I always thought it was funny to me that the comic tends to counter ALL porn as bad and that people on here tend to agree...as long as it is bondage and submissive porn. I mean, besides that, everything else is A-OKAY.

But in reality, I think any type of porn is damaging and can lead to serious repercussions. You build a tolerance to it and eventually start craving harder and harder stuff. I was trying to find an article that I came across that actually showed an EEG (or was it ECG)? of the human brain, but I couldn't. Try this one though. http://bigthink.com/going-mental/is-your-brain-addicted-to-porn

And just to let you know, you might get a few shouts. Posts like this generally are supposed to go to "general discussion", not on the "comic" portion of the site.

As I said: some unseen and unspoken rule of forum ettiquette...

or whatever... Razz
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arkhron wrote:
Ktern wrote:
so honestly i'm wondering, does this "female friendly porn" exist and live up to the title

what does it entail and what about it makes it more "female friendly"



There exists... attempts. But not because the porn industry feels the bads about itself and wants to redirect its influence along time. Fuck no.

The attempts exists because the average porn consumer are mainly males and they are lefting out a gross percentage of demographic. That's it, 50% of people, and doubling the sales is enough to wet the pants of any kind of film producer.

Take care I am not saying that women don't see porn! But women see porn "designed" (and how! .) to males. The industry has years trying to obtain a formula that appeals to female too, whit no success.

As far I know, they have tried using female porn directors, polls, not degrading scenes (like no facials, no bitchslapping, no spit, no... treating the female partner as sex doll or furniture, lol) a storyline that stand by itself, atractive male partner (instead the traditional I-have-a-big-penis-and-neanderthal-forehead-matching)...

And so far, they can't say they achieved it properly. Damn women and their confusing sexuality!

My point here is, although female (kinda) friendly porn exists, it has failed appealing to women. And it failed as a product too, the true cause of its existence


Yeah. I am quoting myself. Because I have no shame Very Happy
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this should have been in General Discussion? But maybe someone can move it.

Anyway, as I see it, the MAIN problem isn't the level of tastefulness in the porn, it's the total lack of self awareness.

To take one example, I don't care if someone is into humiliation stuff in principal, but they need to be honest about the fact that that is their kink, and the porn itself needs to be honest about the fact that it is humiliation/degradation porn.

What really skeeves me out is the number of "mainstream" titles that have humiliation etc as a main theme. I don't care if people are into that, I care if they don't have any concept that they are, in fact into humiliation as a kink, and think that stuff like that is "standard" or "normal"

Because no matter how many times people try to claim that porn consumers "understand that it's fantasy" the fact is that...they don't, not really. Maybe they think it's a fantasy in that they understand that most women don't look like that or something, but a lot don't have a deep understanding that things don't work like that during sex usually, and the same thing goes for stuff that very often appears in "standard" or "mainstream" porn.
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Arkhron

I would tend to disagree about that a bit? I don't think the porn industry in the west has actually tried all that hard to make porn that appeals to women. I mean, actually tried by taking into account what women would like and not what they think women would like.

The Boys Love phenomenon in Japan is a good example of porn by and for women that has consistent and wide appeal, and within the doujinshi scene there's also a thriving amount of het by and for women.

Also see the success of Filament which I posted about earlier, which was a nude magazine for women which took what women said they wanted into account and had (for instance) appealingly posed me with actual cock showing, whereas the conventional wisdom in the west is that women would not like looking at cock.

And, quite frankly, if we're not counting literary materials with explicity sex, why aren't we counting those? It's like people defined "porn" in general as the kind of porn that men like and then declared that women don't like porn. The picture is even more decisive, I think if you include erotica. And again, if you're not including erotica, then why not?
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Believe me, the west had tried very hard to sell porn to females. I'll say again: Not for equality, only for the almighty dollar. There had been surveys, researchs and high money piling and their tries had failed by a mile.

The cockshowing magazines is a example of that. They were launched and failed to achieve a equal number of sales like the male directed ones. By a gross percentage. And they found the data that their magazines were bought also by gay man and women, and (somehow) that disturbed the publisher company.

You catch me unaware of the Boys Love Phenomenon. I'll look that at home (yay, porn investigation!).

And about including literary material with explicit sex and erotica... then we have to ask ourselves... What is porn anyway?


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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3315

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Re: Slightly off-topic: Porn. Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
It is against the norm here. You might get a couple of angry shouts. I'm not sure why; some kind of forum etiquette I suppose. I always thought it was funny to me that the comic tends to counter ALL porn as bad and that people on here tend to agree...as long as it is bondage and submissive porn. I mean, besides that, everything else is A-OKAY.

But in reality, I think any type of porn is damaging and can lead to serious repercussions. You build a tolerance to it and eventually start craving harder and harder stuff. I was trying to find an article that I came across that actually showed an EEG (or was it ECG)? of the human brain, but I couldn't. Try this one though. http://bigthink.com/going-mental/is-your-brain-addicted-to-porn

And just to let you know, you might get a few shouts. Posts like this generally are supposed to go to "general discussion", not on the "comic" portion of the site.

As I said: some unseen and unspoken rule of forum ettiquette...

or whatever... Razz


You're as fucking clueless as bitflipper.
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lol



Joined: 16 Nov 2012
Posts: 136

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: Slightly off-topic: Porn. Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Hey, guys. So I'm totally new and I'm making an off-topic thread. Please don't tar and feather me. And uh, also please don't tar and feather me for what I'm going to ask. I'm trying to learn.

I realize that a lot of porn is very obviously bad. A lot of porn is all about the male gaze and shows disgusting/humiliating/horrible things happening to women, so I understand why that sort of pornography is anti-feminist.

But-- I feel like a less sex-obsessed Squig here-- is there something wrong with porn that's more tasteful in regards to gender equality? I understand that the industry as a whole is mostly the type of porn that I mentioned above, so I can see most of it as being wrong, but I'm less certain about other types.

Just looking for a little education on the subject. I thought this would be a good place to start.

Well, there are two things to remember here:

1. Feminists have wildly varying views on pornography.

2. The biggest concern, at least in mainstream feminism, is not the sexual acts performed on screen. What consenting adults do with each other is their choice. The issue is a lot more about labor practices. Questions like: Are the performers treated like shit? Were they coerced into certain acts? Etc...

I don't think porn is inherently bad.

...also, Gibson is mostly wrong.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6060
Location: California

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm not sure how you're supposed to market porn to women when that takes place in a culture that still isn't totally comfortable with the idea of women expressing their own sexuality in the first place. certainly our culture isn't as comfortable with that for women as it is for men.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gibson22 wrote:
ALL porn as bad and that people on here tend to agree...as long as it is bondage and submissive porn.


This stands out to me as one of the more wrong parts of what you said, but I'm feeling a bit, uh, subby right now, so maybe I'm not being objective about this.


I mean there is a lot wrong with how people are treated on-screen and off-screen and with how they are portrayed and with how certain acts are portrayed but BDSM/whatever in and of itself is generally not the problem.
ShadowCell wrote:
i'm not sure how you're supposed to market porn to women when that takes place in a culture that still isn't totally comfortable with the idea of women expressing their own sexuality in the first place. certainly our culture isn't as comfortable with that for women as it is for men.


+1
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Hey, guys. So I'm totally new and I'm making an off-topic thread. Please don't tar and feather me. And uh, also please don't tar and feather me for what I'm going to ask. I'm trying to learn.

I realize that a lot of porn is very obviously bad. A lot of porn is all about the male gaze and shows disgusting/humiliating/horrible things happening to women, so I understand why that sort of pornography is anti-feminist.

But-- I feel like a less sex-obsessed Squig here-- is there something wrong with porn that's more tasteful in regards to gender equality? I understand that the industry as a whole is mostly the type of porn that I mentioned above, so I can see most of it as being wrong, but I'm less certain about other types.

Just looking for a little education on the subject. I thought this would be a good place to start.

Well, there are two things to remember here:

1. Feminism isn't a monolithic set of ideals to which all feminists adhere. Opinions on pornography are very diverse, contrary to what folks like Gibson or Rothide will tell you.

2. The biggest concern, at least in mainstream feminism, is not the sexual acts performed on screen. What consenting adults do with each other is their choice. The issue is lot more about labor practices. Questions like: Are the performers treated like shit? Did people in disadvantaged circumstances get exploited to make these films? Etc...

My personal belief is that porn is not inherently bad.


Porn is not inherently bad.

Porn regularly displays scenarios, and behaviors that are just this side of degrading for a lot of women, and in a lot of cases are completely degrading and that is the entire point and this is bad.

A great deal of young men are now exposed to hardcore pornography long before they have their first face to face sexual experience. When they fall back to what they "know" works it creates a great deal of trouble, both in his expectations of what to do, and hers in what to expect.


The fact that respectful porn exists in some amount doesn't really mitigate the effects of the problematic shit, which is ubiquitous.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Gibson22 wrote:
ALL porn as bad and that people on here tend to agree...as long as it is bondage and submissive porn.


This stands out to me as one of the more wrong parts of what you said, but I'm feeling a bit, uh, subby right now, so maybe I'm not being objective about this.


That's why I like you, Heretical Rants. You are always willing to show me mercy. :3 Anyway, if you want me to read anything on the subject I'm down for it. Or anyone here for that matter. Under that link I posted I found a comment that decried the article so there must be a counter-point and I would like to give it a chance. After promising Mouse to read some material I am in the mood to take a look.
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khan



Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 168

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its awfully hard to market porn to a gender that is judged so harshly for any signs of promiscuity... such as enjoying sex. Thus manynwomen are likely embarassed to purchase porn. I have heard that the anonymousish internet has actually made serious in roads, but i doubt many women feel entirely comfortable discussing sex in front of men, including interest in porn.

Working conditions can get pretty horiffic in porn, and remember, most people try to emulate, conciously or otherwise, those they admire. Most, or at least a plurality of people have the tendancy to fantasize about sex, and sometimes fantasy leaks into reality. Some of the more egregious porn really has no place in reality, yet now you can even watch it. And hey, if you can watch it, that means it happens! And suddenly a weirdo is deluded into thinking his, uh, messed up fantasy kink isnt horrifying and deserving of repression. The reason humiliation/sadism porn is always pretty bad is that even if a directors can find a girl that actually enjoys the acts, it is not realistic to expect your gf or wife to be remotely into your disturbing fetish.

Think of how successful modern advertising is, and ask what your porn is trying to sell you.
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:

A great deal of young men are now exposed to hardcore pornography long before they have their first face to face sexual experience. When they fall back to what they "know" works it creates a great deal of trouble, both in his expectations of what to do, and hers in what to expect.


THIS.

I once walked out right in the middle with a guy who was saying ...unkind... things to me. Like I put up with it for a while but then I couldn't anymore and I just left. Just sat up and started putting my clothes on.

And he was like, "Do you want to talk about it?" Like, he was genuinely baffled or something.

And I said "No," and left.

Maybe some people will criticize me for not explaining myself, but the experience had been upsetting, and quite frankly, I don't think I should need to tell people that I don't want to be insulted/degraded beforehand. I think if people want that to be on the menu they should be the ones to ask me about it.

Sad

There have also been other experiences, which, like this one, I think likely trace back to porn, but basically people are full of shit if they don't think people are internalizing porn as somehow reflective of how reality is or should be.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2013 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think necessarily that Bondage is bad, if practiced correctly it does lead to being closer, some people LIKE giving up control, specially if they are always expected to BE in control, or expected to be the one towing the line. Sometimes just being told what to do or being denide having an action can be a thrill.

Best example I can show is one I've mentioned before, read the Echi manga "Nana to Kaoru" it deals with bondage. It shows what a healthy and even GOOD the act of bondage can be.

I must admit, there is a lot of cheescake in the pinups, but the main story has the main girl, Nana, dressing modestly, even having a onepiece swimsuit durring the "breather" sesions.
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