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Slightly off-topic: Porn.
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Ah, "political correctness." Forgive me for being leery of people who complain about this term non-ironically. In my experience the behavior they are referring to as "political correctness" can most easily be described as "not being a deliberate asshole to your fellow human beings."


Ok. addressing this, I agree with you that an aversion to political correctness can often be a smokescreen those who want to be carelessly offensive use in order to justify being unnecessarily hurtful. I also think you can have an aversion to political correctness because you don't think not talking about race solves racism. So, if your point is "make sure you are being respectful when you engage in discussions about race" and my point is "its important that people aren't afraid to have discussions about race", then our points do NOT conflict. We can and perhaps should do both.

Quote:

I think you are making a false dichotomy here. Just because the meaning of a certain word isn't literally encoded onto it's very phonemes doesn't mean it can be completely unmoored from the context that gave it it's meaning in the first place.


I agree with you again that words have distinct and politically significant cultural meaning and we should be sensitive of the context in which our words operate. I looked for the false dichotomy (presenting two exclusive choices when "both", "niether" or other options are available) and I couldn't see it. could you specifically point it out for me?


Quote:
Sure, the swastika started out as a symbol of good fortune. Sure, there is nothing inherent about that symbol which says it must indicate racism/anti-semitism. Does that mean Jewish people or minorities are unreasonable in interpreting the display of a swastika as such? No. Does that mean it's unreasonable to expect people raised in our culture to understand that it is generally considered a dick move to display swastikas? Fuck no.


Yeah, I agree with you on this as well. Of course, since the swastika has transitioned from one semiotic meaning to another, perhaps it will do so again. That doesn't mean I condone parading them around under the guise of "taking it back" necessarily (although that has worked with some words...)

Quote:
And the exact same thing can be said for racial slurs, race-face makeup, fucking nooses, That dumbass "ching-chong" thing people do to Asians, using the word "female" as a noun when referencing humans etc. In like 95% percent of cases claiming to be totally ignorant of the meaning is incredible. It is literally without credibility. The meanings these things have derive from a heavy history and context, and you can't just wish that away with your good intentions.


Again, agreed. Are you equating my "we should not be afraid to talk about race" to doing all of those clearly offensive things? that doesn't seem reasonable to me.

Quote:

And finally, and perhaps most importantly, what exactly do you mean by
Quote:
being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized

??

One thing I really cannot abide is this persistent attitude that being told you did a racist thing is worse than doing a racist thing.



Again, you tell me something I agree with and tell me you are disagreeing with me. so I said "being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized actually reinforces racism by making the topic taboo and difficult to engage with, engagement which leads to healing" and your response was that I think that "being told you did a racist thing is worse than doing a racist thing"? these dont line up! come on man.

Quote:
FFS "dehumanized"?! Do you know what is dehumanizing? Suffering from the effects of racism. Do you know what isn't? Having someone tell you that maybe you are doing a racist thing. Hold on... I think I have a picture that perfectly expresses my feelings on this topic.


Okay, so because I think dehumanizing racists is counter-productive that means I think the dehumanization of racists is a bigger deal than being the target of racism?

Please restore my faith in you and admit your post was largely an argument against someone I don't know who you have been practising against in your mind for a long time.
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:

Yknow precautions other than a "are you 18 y/n" might help.


Such as.. Logging in with ID? yeah. Can't see how that'd ever end up complicating things. Razz

The way I see it is a parental thing. There is good software and good options for modifying machines to limit teen exposure to porn. One can offer alternatives to sate the curious minds. My own mum left erotic literature in the form of Jean M Auel in my tweeny hands. Not the rapey book, the one that came after.
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
Posts: 101

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:

I'm terrible at updating, but I've got a few things up publicly at DA: http://devirune.deviantart.com/gallery/ and FA: http://www.furaffinity.net/gallery/notsafefurwork/

What's there is most def NSFW. And, in case the FA link doesn't give it away, yeah, it's anthro.

Hmm, now that you've reminded me it's there, I think I need to get a couple more pieces uploaded...


Don't have accounts, so can't see the naughty stuff. Good job on the sfw stuff though!
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wait wait, I though the furdom decided Sinfest was a bunch of nazis back in 2008.
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Kjralon



Joined: 19 Mar 2013
Posts: 52
Location: New Jersey, USA

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:


Porn is not inherently bad.

Porn regularly displays scenarios, and behaviors that are just this side of degrading for a lot of women, and in a lot of cases are completely degrading and that is the entire point and this is bad.

A great deal of young men are now exposed to hardcore pornography long before they have their first face to face sexual experience. When they fall back to what they "know" works it creates a great deal of trouble, both in his expectations of what to do, and hers in what to expect.


The fact that respectful porn exists in some amount doesn't really mitigate the effects of the problematic shit, which is ubiquitous.


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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3448
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
wait wait, I though the furdom decided Sinfest was a bunch of nazis back in 2008.


There are some mature folks in the fandom who can get along with others outside it.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3352

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Okay, porn. We have subjects and consumers. I dislike the gender binary, but that makes things even more confusing and I wanna just talk about things topically so lets first assume the idea of two genders makes sense (it doesn't).

The statement "ALL PORN IS BAD/SEXIST" is impossible to justify. Rational thinkers understand this. 99.9999999999% of porn could be bad and the statement still wouldn't make sense.

The core of this issue is the dual concepts of the individual level and the macro-cultural level. if you think the individual level doesnt matter even a little bit, dont read my posts. we disagree on such a fundamental ontological level that we won't be useful to each other.

The obvious truth is that on the individual level, there DOES exist porn which depicts women enjoying sex without inherently having much, if any, patriarchy-enforcing tendencies. Mysogynists could watch it, enjoy it, and pretend the women involved are submissive and helpless and all those other nasty associations, but there DOES exist content which does not seem to come pre-packed with this mysogyny. http://www.ifeelmyself.com/public/main.php is one example, in my opinion.

The thing that some radfems fail to recognise in my opinion is that porn, that is, the idea of watching people do sexy things and then doing sexy things while watching them do sexy things, is not inherently sexist. Its something that engages with sexuality, and often has a message. Not everything that engages with sexuality and has a message is inherently sexist! Its the same reason political correctness fails to solve racism: the decision to talk about culture and race and the definitions of those words and trends and how these words interact is not inherently racist, in fact if I may editorialize a bit, I think being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized actually reinforces racism by making the topic taboo and difficult to engage with, engagement which leads to healing. Similarly, believing that the act of watching sexual stuff happen on a screen for the purposes of being aroused is inherently sexist actually reinforces sexism.

The porn industry (like all media) has become decentralized due to the Internet, among other things. There are pockets of porn where things are good, everyone is happy, and nobody feels exploited. They are smaller than the ones where women are made to depict things which give me a psychic revulsion, be it due to the more obvious or subtle reinforcing of really shitty gender roles. THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES BOTH CO EXIST. Personally, I try and avoid and rally against the stuff that doesn't work, and while I don't really watch porn anymore these days, I celebrate the stuff that does work culturally. Flipping the table or holding your breath or all those other ways of colloquially being obstinate or dogmatic are not helping.


I will wager I can link between 5 and 10 sites that range from problematic to vile for every sex positive minimally problematic site you could post up.

I said it earlier, the fact that non-degrading porn exists, does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that it is a significant portion of porn consumed.


you're right. I agree with you. what you just said agrees with what I said. who the fuck thinks most porn isn't vile. why on earth do you think your response doesn't comport with my post? what am I missing? did you read it all the way through?


Because just like "BUT THE MENFOLK" when people say "BUT THE FEMINIST PORN" makes them look like a douche when it comprises such a miniscule percent of the porn consumed. So fucking what if there's porn that holds a microscopic market share that doesn't share these problematic traits.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 733

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
wait wait, I though the furdom decided Sinfest was a bunch of nazis back in 2008.


Wait why would they do that?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yrvani wrote:
Rune wrote:

I'm terrible at updating, but I've got a few things up publicly at DA: http://devirune.deviantart.com/gallery/ and FA: http://www.furaffinity.net/gallery/notsafefurwork/

What's there is most def NSFW. And, in case the FA link doesn't give it away, yeah, it's anthro.

Hmm, now that you've reminded me it's there, I think I need to get a couple more pieces uploaded...


Don't have accounts, so can't see the naughty stuff. Good job on the sfw stuff though!


Thank'ye! I'm doing some character concept dev and trying to nail a style for a regular-like erotic comic. I'm not quite where I want to be yet, though.

stripeypants wrote:
Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
wait wait, I though the furdom decided Sinfest was a bunch of nazis back in 2008.


There are some mature folks in the fandom who can get along with others outside it.


I do like certain fur and anthro styles, but I've never really been a part of furdom, in spite of current evidence to the contrary. More like I dabble around the outskirts because it's fun to draw, and easier to explore erotic themes a step or three removed from reality. Quick and easy suspension of norms.

Though, I had to stand and cheer (and LMAO) when the local fursuit brigade marched in my hometown's Summerfest parade. My hometown is a super duper straight-laced, squeaky-clean bubble world. I didn't even know there -was- a local fursuit brigade. Of course, then I had to try to explain to my very conservative extended family why I was laughing so hard...

But me, I'm a comics and 'toons person first, fur way, way, way down the list if I bother to think about the label at all.
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Samsally



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 6632

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In '08 someone (IceSniper?...) decided to start a furry porn thread and it exploded. It got so popular it was the first result on google when you searched furry porn and that just made it MORE popular. The forum was then overrun with people coming for the furry porn and staying for... god knows what, the abuse I suppose.

The regulars didn't take kindly to the invasion of strange new people who wouldn't stop posting porn everywhere and eventually we got Tat to delete the thread.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my furaffinity account would make my grandmother cry


actually, a lot of things about me would make my grandmother cry



at present my interactions with my grandmother are mostly, "gee I wish she'd stop donating money to the Catholic church on my behalf," but I dare not express that sentiment to her lest she give them even more money
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Okay, porn. We have subjects and consumers. I dislike the gender binary, but that makes things even more confusing and I wanna just talk about things topically so lets first assume the idea of two genders makes sense (it doesn't).

The statement "ALL PORN IS BAD/SEXIST" is impossible to justify. Rational thinkers understand this. 99.9999999999% of porn could be bad and the statement still wouldn't make sense.

The core of this issue is the dual concepts of the individual level and the macro-cultural level. if you think the individual level doesnt matter even a little bit, dont read my posts. we disagree on such a fundamental ontological level that we won't be useful to each other.

The obvious truth is that on the individual level, there DOES exist porn which depicts women enjoying sex without inherently having much, if any, patriarchy-enforcing tendencies. Mysogynists could watch it, enjoy it, and pretend the women involved are submissive and helpless and all those other nasty associations, but there DOES exist content which does not seem to come pre-packed with this mysogyny. http://www.ifeelmyself.com/public/main.php is one example, in my opinion.

The thing that some radfems fail to recognise in my opinion is that porn, that is, the idea of watching people do sexy things and then doing sexy things while watching them do sexy things, is not inherently sexist. Its something that engages with sexuality, and often has a message. Not everything that engages with sexuality and has a message is inherently sexist! Its the same reason political correctness fails to solve racism: the decision to talk about culture and race and the definitions of those words and trends and how these words interact is not inherently racist, in fact if I may editorialize a bit, I think being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized actually reinforces racism by making the topic taboo and difficult to engage with, engagement which leads to healing. Similarly, believing that the act of watching sexual stuff happen on a screen for the purposes of being aroused is inherently sexist actually reinforces sexism.

The porn industry (like all media) has become decentralized due to the Internet, among other things. There are pockets of porn where things are good, everyone is happy, and nobody feels exploited. They are smaller than the ones where women are made to depict things which give me a psychic revulsion, be it due to the more obvious or subtle reinforcing of really shitty gender roles. THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES BOTH CO EXIST. Personally, I try and avoid and rally against the stuff that doesn't work, and while I don't really watch porn anymore these days, I celebrate the stuff that does work culturally. Flipping the table or holding your breath or all those other ways of colloquially being obstinate or dogmatic are not helping.


I will wager I can link between 5 and 10 sites that range from problematic to vile for every sex positive minimally problematic site you could post up.

I said it earlier, the fact that non-degrading porn exists, does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that it is a significant portion of porn consumed.


you're right. I agree with you. what you just said agrees with what I said. who the fuck thinks most porn isn't vile. why on earth do you think your response doesn't comport with my post? what am I missing? did you read it all the way through?


Because just like "BUT THE MENFOLK" when people say "BUT THE FEMINIST PORN" makes them look like a douche when it comprises such a miniscule percent of the porn consumed. So fucking what if there's porn that holds a microscopic market share that doesn't share these problematic traits.


you're equating mentioning the existence of porn that isn't horrible with arguing that the majority of porn isn't bad. that is irrational.
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Kendra



Joined: 14 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ello. New here.
Also, I can't believe so many people are forgetting about Fifty Shades of Gray! Of course ladies have porn, it's just that we read our porn. Video porn is marketed towards men, and book porn is marketed towards women. However, I would say that they are marketed completely different ways. In general female porn is more about the romantic and the sensual side of the act, while male porn is just about the act itself and nothing else.
In other words...
Female porn: "He touched her body with sweet reluctance, yet sinful desire."
Male porn: "He had a boner. He fucked her vagina. He fucked her mouth. He cummed. He fell asleep. The end."
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10951
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, so... what's the point of this thread?

There exists porn that isn't degrading to women, everyone agrees.

It makes up a microscopic portion of total porn, everyone agrees.

Much of the rest of porn presents unrealistic, degrading stereotypes of male-female interaction, everyone agrees.

So now we're arguing over whether exclusive statements are true, which they rarely are, as though this is important? Is that where we're at? I'm glad I came in at this point and didn't waste 6 pages just to talk about semantics.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1055

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Okay, porn. We have subjects and consumers. I dislike the gender binary, but that makes things even more confusing and I wanna just talk about things topically so lets first assume the idea of two genders makes sense (it doesn't).

The statement "ALL PORN IS BAD/SEXIST" is impossible to justify. Rational thinkers understand this. 99.9999999999% of porn could be bad and the statement still wouldn't make sense.

The core of this issue is the dual concepts of the individual level and the macro-cultural level. if you think the individual level doesnt matter even a little bit, dont read my posts. we disagree on such a fundamental ontological level that we won't be useful to each other.

The obvious truth is that on the individual level, there DOES exist porn which depicts women enjoying sex without inherently having much, if any, patriarchy-enforcing tendencies. Mysogynists could watch it, enjoy it, and pretend the women involved are submissive and helpless and all those other nasty associations, but there DOES exist content which does not seem to come pre-packed with this mysogyny. http://www.ifeelmyself.com/public/main.php is one example, in my opinion.

The thing that some radfems fail to recognise in my opinion is that porn, that is, the idea of watching people do sexy things and then doing sexy things while watching them do sexy things, is not inherently sexist. Its something that engages with sexuality, and often has a message. Not everything that engages with sexuality and has a message is inherently sexist! Its the same reason political correctness fails to solve racism: the decision to talk about culture and race and the definitions of those words and trends and how these words interact is not inherently racist, in fact if I may editorialize a bit, I think being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized actually reinforces racism by making the topic taboo and difficult to engage with, engagement which leads to healing. Similarly, believing that the act of watching sexual stuff happen on a screen for the purposes of being aroused is inherently sexist actually reinforces sexism.

The porn industry (like all media) has become decentralized due to the Internet, among other things. There are pockets of porn where things are good, everyone is happy, and nobody feels exploited. They are smaller than the ones where women are made to depict things which give me a psychic revulsion, be it due to the more obvious or subtle reinforcing of really shitty gender roles. THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES BOTH CO EXIST. Personally, I try and avoid and rally against the stuff that doesn't work, and while I don't really watch porn anymore these days, I celebrate the stuff that does work culturally. Flipping the table or holding your breath or all those other ways of colloquially being obstinate or dogmatic are not helping.


I will wager I can link between 5 and 10 sites that range from problematic to vile for every sex positive minimally problematic site you could post up.

I said it earlier, the fact that non-degrading porn exists, does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that it is a significant portion of porn consumed.


you're right. I agree with you. what you just said agrees with what I said. who the fuck thinks most porn isn't vile. why on earth do you think your response doesn't comport with my post? what am I missing? did you read it all the way through?


Because just like "BUT THE MENFOLK" when people say "BUT THE FEMINIST PORN" makes them look like a douche when it comprises such a miniscule percent of the porn consumed. So fucking what if there's porn that holds a microscopic market share that doesn't share these problematic traits.


you're equating mentioning the existence of porn that isn't horrible with arguing that the majority of porn isn't bad. that is irrational.


I think what he's saying is that it's largely irrelevant to a discussion on the deleterious effects of existing porn in general, and bringing it up as being significant or mitigating is a move that might as well come out of the Derailing for Dummies handbook.
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