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Slightly off-topic: Porn.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 713

PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Okay, porn. We have subjects and consumers. I dislike the gender binary, but that makes things even more confusing and I wanna just talk about things topically so lets first assume the idea of two genders makes sense (it doesn't).

The statement "ALL PORN IS BAD/SEXIST" is impossible to justify. Rational thinkers understand this. 99.9999999999% of porn could be bad and the statement still wouldn't make sense.

The core of this issue is the dual concepts of the individual level and the macro-cultural level. if you think the individual level doesnt matter even a little bit, dont read my posts. we disagree on such a fundamental ontological level that we won't be useful to each other.

The obvious truth is that on the individual level, there DOES exist porn which depicts women enjoying sex without inherently having much, if any, patriarchy-enforcing tendencies. Mysogynists could watch it, enjoy it, and pretend the women involved are submissive and helpless and all those other nasty associations, but there DOES exist content which does not seem to come pre-packed with this mysogyny. http://www.ifeelmyself.com/public/main.php is one example, in my opinion.

The thing that some radfems fail to recognise in my opinion is that porn, that is, the idea of watching people do sexy things and then doing sexy things while watching them do sexy things, is not inherently sexist. Its something that engages with sexuality, and often has a message. Not everything that engages with sexuality and has a message is inherently sexist! Its the same reason political correctness fails to solve racism: the decision to talk about culture and race and the definitions of those words and trends and how these words interact is not inherently racist, in fact if I may editorialize a bit, I think being afraid to engage in a discussion about race for fear of being dehumanized actually reinforces racism by making the topic taboo and difficult to engage with, engagement which leads to healing. Similarly, believing that the act of watching sexual stuff happen on a screen for the purposes of being aroused is inherently sexist actually reinforces sexism.

The porn industry (like all media) has become decentralized due to the Internet, among other things. There are pockets of porn where things are good, everyone is happy, and nobody feels exploited. They are smaller than the ones where women are made to depict things which give me a psychic revulsion, be it due to the more obvious or subtle reinforcing of really shitty gender roles. THE TWO PREVIOUS SENTENCES BOTH CO EXIST. Personally, I try and avoid and rally against the stuff that doesn't work, and while I don't really watch porn anymore these days, I celebrate the stuff that does work culturally. Flipping the table or holding your breath or all those other ways of colloquially being obstinate or dogmatic are not helping.


I will wager I can link between 5 and 10 sites that range from problematic to vile for every sex positive minimally problematic site you could post up.

I said it earlier, the fact that non-degrading porn exists, does not by any stretch of the imagination mean that it is a significant portion of porn consumed.


you're right. I agree with you. what you just said agrees with what I said. who the fuck thinks most porn isn't vile. why on earth do you think your response doesn't comport with my post? what am I missing? did you read it all the way through?


Because just like "BUT THE MENFOLK" when people say "BUT THE FEMINIST PORN" makes them look like a douche when it comprises such a miniscule percent of the porn consumed. So fucking what if there's porn that holds a microscopic market share that doesn't share these problematic traits.


you're equating mentioning the existence of porn that isn't horrible with arguing that the majority of porn isn't bad. that is irrational.


I think what he's saying is that it's largely irrelevant to a discussion on the deleterious effects of existing porn in general, and bringing it up as being significant or mitigating is a move that might as well come out of the Derailing for Dummies handbook.


Well, but if the question is: "Some porn isn't degrading to women. Is it OK to watch *that* porn? Or is that porn also bad?", then it's not actually off topic/derailing.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe, but not particularly useful when it comes to helping those who are currently being hurt/exploited/affected. It might be an example of how porn(general) might eventually evolve to not be bad, but doesn't mean that porn(general) right now isn't.

But that's a difficult discussion to tread near without getting into bloviating distraction territory.

And to the premise your question starts from, even if the porn itself is not overtly degrading, there is always still the question of whether owning a digital harem to call upon for one's own carnal satisfaction is ever really healthy. How the material is used and marketed is still subject to question. While I'm a fan of erotic material to help broaden horizons and get one in the mood, things that are strictly for jacking-off to make me uncomfortable. I realize that there's as fine and subjective a line there as might make no real difference to some people, and there can always be a disconnect between artists' intentions and end use, but it could still be worth having a discussion on the nuances.
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Thenadathor



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

I think what he's saying is that it's largely irrelevant to a discussion on the deleterious effects of existing porn in general, and bringing it up as being significant or mitigating is a move that might as well come out of the Derailing for Dummies handbook.


mm. I think it's relevant because in my experience the best way to change society is positive reinforcement, in this case celebrating what you like to get more of it rather than hating what you don't like to get less of it. But I understand if you disagree with that methodology.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
Quote:

I think what he's saying is that it's largely irrelevant to a discussion on the deleterious effects of existing porn in general, and bringing it up as being significant or mitigating is a move that might as well come out of the Derailing for Dummies handbook.


mm. I think it's relevant because in my experience the best way to change society is positive reinforcement, in this case celebrating what you like to get more of it rather than hating what you don't like to get less of it. But I understand if you disagree with that methodology.


Serious question then, as to your experience, how much activism and actual attempts to change society have you been involved in? Do you have a lot of experience? Are you involved with those who do?
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really?

In my experience Shame and the threat of ostracism is the greatest engine of cultural change.

"Be positive" is basically the same as "just phrase your issue more nicely" Eventually you're so positive people don't think anything is wrong.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kendra wrote:
Ello. New here.
Also, I can't believe so many people are forgetting about Fifty Shades of Gray! Of course ladies have porn, it's just that we read our porn. Video porn is marketed towards men, and book porn is marketed towards women. However, I would say that they are marketed completely different ways. In general female porn is more about the romantic and the sensual side of the act, while male porn is just about the act itself and nothing else.
In other words...
Female porn: "He touched her body with sweet reluctance, yet sinful desire."
Male porn: "He had a boner. He fucked her vagina. He fucked her mouth. He cummed. He fell asleep. The end."


You godamned bumbling fucking shit bastard.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi I'm a porn novel and I find Fifty Shades of Grey to be an affront to my very being.



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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
"Be positive" is basically the same as "just phrase your issue more nicely" Eventually you're so positive people don't think anything is wrong.


Even if people will readily admit that something is wrong, ("Well, duh porn is vile!") it's harder to get them to take it seriously. ("Oh, wait, you wanted me to actually change my behavior somehow?")

And, in my own experience actually participating in groups working for social change, while you need both sides of the coin, bringing up the "nice" when it's such a minuscule percentage of the truth, and when the step that you're on is just raising awareness in the first place, can be extremely counter-productive.

Ideally, what you want is for people to come to empathize with those who are being harmed.
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Thenadathor



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Quote:

I think what he's saying is that it's largely irrelevant to a discussion on the deleterious effects of existing porn in general, and bringing it up as being significant or mitigating is a move that might as well come out of the Derailing for Dummies handbook.


mm. I think it's relevant because in my experience the best way to change society is positive reinforcement, in this case celebrating what you like to get more of it rather than hating what you don't like to get less of it. But I understand if you disagree with that methodology.


Serious question then, as to your experience, how much activism and actual attempts to change society have you been involved in? Do you have a lot of experience? Are you involved with those who do?


I have been involved in some. Gay pride parades, idle no more stuff, and I have had activist partners. I also study political philosophy, whatever THAT means XD. I honestly believe that positive reinforcement is more effective than negative reinforcement at driving change at the societal level. Look at malcom X versus MLK. If you view people who disagree with you as beautiful, noble, deserving-of-love humans, then your attempts to sway them work better. People are a lot more likely to tune out your message if it is presented in a way that sounds defeatist or overly pessimistic. People want something to passionately support because it feels good to do something that helps make the world a better place.

Please dont equate this with idealism or dismissing how bad things can be. You need to stick to your principles, even when it's difficult. You just have to keep in mind the tribalism humans have encoded in our DNA. we seek out groups of like-minded people and then generalize about those outside the group. If being an activist is unconsciously an opportunity to derive some kind of pleasure through righteous, justified anger, thats kind of messed up.
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Irony



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cactuar wrote:

No, what I actually said is that since society views women as being "damaged" by sex, the proper response is not to show narratives where sex is explicitly portrayed as being intrinsically degrading to women! Which is like, most mainstream porn ffs.

Well, maybe if you look for it. I'm no expert, but the porn I've run across mostly shows people having sex and a story which is pretty much nonexistent. I honestly don't even see a ton of "dirty talk", much less explicit degradation of the woman.

When I look at the anti-porn people, there seems to be this notion that women are being degraded by being in porn. Why? Well...because of the attitude that women are "damaged" by having sex.

When you talk about how porn "explicitly" degrades women, it sounds to me much like the laughable anti-drug campaigns in schools. It's not that drugs are harmless, far from it, it's just that what they say about them is completely out-of-sync with my actual experiences and those of actual users I've talked to and are hilariously over-the-top.

Consider for a moment the state of women's rights in areas where porn is common and passe versus where it is strongly demonized or outright criminalized. See a pattern?

It seems to me that those crusading against it talking about the women being "damaged" already had that opinion, then sought to justify it. All the while unaware that the opinion stems from the notion that women ought not be open about having and enjoying sex.
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Zhuinden



Joined: 02 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irony wrote:
Cactuar wrote:

No, what I actually said is that since society views women as being "damaged" by sex, the proper response is not to show narratives where sex is explicitly portrayed as being intrinsically degrading to women! Which is like, most mainstream porn ffs.

Well, maybe if you look for it. I'm no expert, but the porn I've run across mostly shows people having sex and a story which is pretty much nonexistent. I honestly don't even see a ton of "dirty talk", much less explicit degradation of the woman.

When I look at the anti-porn people, there seems to be this notion that women are being degraded by being in porn. Why? Well...because of the attitude that women are "damaged" by having sex.

When you talk about how porn "explicitly" degrades women, it sounds to me much like the laughable anti-drug campaigns in schools. It's not that drugs are harmless, far from it, it's just that what they say about them is completely out-of-sync with my actual experiences and those of actual users I've talked to and are hilariously over-the-top.

Consider for a moment the state of women's rights in areas where porn is common and passe versus where it is strongly demonized or outright criminalized. See a pattern?

It seems to me that those crusading against it talking about the women being "damaged" already had that opinion, then sought to justify it. All the while unaware that the opinion stems from the notion that women ought not be open about having and enjoying sex.


You just haven't seen the weird stuff, I think. The one that Squig had on the cover.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irony wrote:
Cactuar wrote:

No, what I actually said is that since society views women as being "damaged" by sex, the proper response is not to show narratives where sex is explicitly portrayed as being intrinsically degrading to women! Which is like, most mainstream porn ffs.

Well, maybe if you look for it. I'm no expert, but the porn I've run across mostly shows people having sex and a story which is pretty much nonexistent. I honestly don't even see a ton of "dirty talk", much less explicit degradation of the woman.

When I look at the anti-porn people, there seems to be this notion that women are being degraded by being in porn. Why? Well...because of the attitude that women are "damaged" by having sex.

When you talk about how porn "explicitly" degrades women, it sounds to me much like the laughable anti-drug campaigns in schools. It's not that drugs are harmless, far from it, it's just that what they say about them is completely out-of-sync with my actual experiences and those of actual users I've talked to and are hilariously over-the-top.

Consider for a moment the state of women's rights in areas where porn is common and passe versus where it is strongly demonized or outright criminalized. See a pattern?

It seems to me that those crusading against it talking about the women being "damaged" already had that opinion, then sought to justify it. All the while unaware that the opinion stems from the notion that women ought not be open about having and enjoying sex.


This is the post of a person who hasn't actually read this thread.

We have three first hand accounts in this very thread of people who've been affected by their partners porn consumption. We've got links to women who've lost their job due to being in porn. No one has yet to take me up on my challenge about finding five to ten sites that glorify the exploitation of women, or outright exploit them in a "revenge porn" sense in comparison to the sites that actually treat the women involved as peopel with their own desires. We've pointed out that the non problematic porn is such a small amount of porn consumed that it doesn't really mitigate the effects of the problematic shit.

Could you kindly actually read the thread rather than posting some bullshit that you pretty clearly just fired off from the top of your head about your opinion on the matter?

Cause if you can't do that you can fuck off.
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Irony



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
This is the post of a person who hasn't actually read this thread.

We have three first hand accounts in this very thread of people who've been affected by their partners porn consumption. We've got links to women who've lost their job due to being in porn. No one has yet to take me up on my challenge about finding five to ten sites that glorify the exploitation of women, or outright exploit them in a "revenge porn" sense in comparison to the sites that actually treat the women involved as peopel with their own desires. We've pointed out that the non problematic porn is such a small amount of porn consumed that it doesn't really mitigate the effects of the problematic shit.

Could you kindly actually read the thread rather than posting some bullshit that you pretty clearly just fired off from the top of your head about your opinion on the matter?

Cause if you can't do that you can fuck off.

Oh I've read this, and a lot more besides. You post anecdotes, again just as the hilariously bad anti-drug campaigns in school did, but you don't go so far as to go beyond that.

I'm not saying porn is harmless, but neither is any type of media. Action movies glorify violence, romance glorifies dependence and gender stereotypes, fantasy glorifies escapism, etc.

You can point to examples of women being exploited in porn, I can point to examples women and men being exploited in plenty of other occupations.

What you can't provide is actual data that says that porn is genuinely dangerous in a way that other forms of media and fantasy we permit are not.

Yes, people can become addicted. Yes, people learn bad things from it. So what?

And again, it comes down not to genuine concern over the cases of women being exploited, but pent up anger over them violating the social taboo of being open about sex. There's a reason the anti-porn lobby is largely filled with religious groups with a very "traditional" view of the role of women. It's the same reason why the countries in which porn is illegal are the ones in which women have the least equality. It's not about porn, it's about the women in porn violating the social taboo that they're not supposed to be promiscuous and enjoy it. That's what you can't stand, and the rest is excuses, excuses, excuses.


Last edited by Irony on Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Irony



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zhuinden wrote:
You just haven't seen the weird stuff, I think. The one that Squig had on the cover.

I haven't looked. But the fact that I've yet to run across it without looking kind of contradicts the notion that it's the vast majority of what's out there.

I don't doubt that there's some really vile stuff out there. But some people here speak as if it's the vast majority. In my experience the vast majority is "girl and guy fuck, the end (with some variance in number and gender)." Not really "objectifying" the woman unless you already view her as an object.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Irony wrote:
Hi I'm an enormous tool. I'm going to make assumptions on why people are talking about porn being dangerous. I'm going to ignore the direct correlations people are drawing. I'm going to ignore the prevalence of revenge porn sites, creepshot sites that invade others privacy, and the unrealistic expectations of how sex is to be done that it creates in young men, who routinely consume porn before having their first sexual experience. In fact I might as well be one of the MRA's who showed up to whine about the feminist arc, only my pet reason for arguing is that i like to have fap material and I'll argue vehemently against anything that might make it seem like visiting a site where women are "tricked" into a van, fucked and then thrown out in the middle of nowhere is bad. Clearly you're against all porn because you point out that a huge portion of the porn consumed is problematic, never mind that no one has said all porn is bad, simply that the amount of non problematic shit is vastly outnumbered by the amount of outright horrific invasions of privacy and scenarios that are actually intended to be degrading and humiliating. Despite all that i'm going to handwave it all away, because hey...sex pos right?


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