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Slightly off-topic: Porn.
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Irony



Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:

Rolling Eyes

Nice to see that you've decided to elevate the conversation above simple name calling and actually address the points presented.

I didn't say you said all porn is bad. You are however saying the vast majority is intentionally degrading, and I am challenging that. Sure, you can find it if you look, but the notion that it is the majority is something which needs better support than a few anecdotes.

Maybe it is just visceral revulsion with me. I hate moral crusaders, flat out. I hate people who try to tell me what I can and can't do based on nothing more than their personal disgust and "stories" of questionable relevance and questionable honesty. If you can give me more and anecdotes and show this widespread societal harm then I might consider your words. Until then you are one more moral crusader telling to adhere to your own personal hangups, no different than a street preacher yelling at some woman for wearing pants.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6020
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

no you won't. you won't consider his words, because you decided ahead of time that you don't like them. hence, you won't consider anything said in this thread, if you even read them (and i highly doubt you did), because you already decided you don't like the conclusion. because you think that you have the right to jack off to degradation of other people and that trumps everything else. because you came here with an agenda and, for all we know, invented a whole set of "experiences" to which you appealed, and a bunch of your own "experiences" that you seem to be taking as gospel while ridiculing the evidentiary standards of other people. you have never presented any evidence of your own; you have always appealed to the mythical force of your own "experience," which is apparently so totally skewed i suspect it is made up out of whole cloth.

maybe it is just visceral revulsion with me. i hate moral crusaders, flat out. i hate people who try to tell me what is and isn't true based on their own personal hangups and "stories" of questionable relevance and questionable honesty. if you can give me more than allusions to anecdotes and show this widespread societal lack of harm then i might consider your words. until then you are one more moral crusader telling to adhere to your own personal hangups, no different than a street preacher yelling at some woman for wearing pants.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6020
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

then again, what can you expect from a morally stunted shitheap who thinks that a woman's expression of sexuality should be that of being used as a sexual service station for a man?
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1043

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobody is telling you what to do or what not to do, Irony. Just to be honest and aware about what it is you're looking at. You just don't like people telling you that your personal superfunhappytime might not be harmless.

Your entire argument seems to be, "I don't feel bad, so it must not be bad, so stop trying to make me feel bad!"

If the truth about something makes you feel bad about it, it might be time for some thoughtful examination of the matter, rather than going, "Nuh-uh! I do what I want!"
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1043

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
Rune wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
Quote:

I think what he's saying is that it's largely irrelevant to a discussion on the deleterious effects of existing porn in general, and bringing it up as being significant or mitigating is a move that might as well come out of the Derailing for Dummies handbook.


mm. I think it's relevant because in my experience the best way to change society is positive reinforcement, in this case celebrating what you like to get more of it rather than hating what you don't like to get less of it. But I understand if you disagree with that methodology.


Serious question then, as to your experience, how much activism and actual attempts to change society have you been involved in? Do you have a lot of experience? Are you involved with those who do?


I have been involved in some. Gay pride parades, idle no more stuff, and I have had activist partners. I also study political philosophy, whatever THAT means XD. I honestly believe that positive reinforcement is more effective than negative reinforcement at driving change at the societal level. Look at malcom X versus MLK. If you view people who disagree with you as beautiful, noble, deserving-of-love humans, then your attempts to sway them work better. People are a lot more likely to tune out your message if it is presented in a way that sounds defeatist or overly pessimistic. People want something to passionately support because it feels good to do something that helps make the world a better place.

Please dont equate this with idealism or dismissing how bad things can be. You need to stick to your principles, even when it's difficult. You just have to keep in mind the tribalism humans have encoded in our DNA. we seek out groups of like-minded people and then generalize about those outside the group. If being an activist is unconsciously an opportunity to derive some kind of pleasure through righteous, justified anger, thats kind of messed up.


It's interesting that you bring up Malcolm X vs MLK. I was actually going to bring them up as an example of how you need both sides. Quite often, any large social movement needs both sides. The more radical element, so long as it doesn't overtake the whole, seems to have the effect of getting attention, and then driving the society to actually have a conversation with the less abrasive elements.
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Irony



Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
Nobody is telling you what to do or what not to do, Irony. Just to be honest and aware about what it is you're looking at. You just don't like people telling you that your personal superfunhappytime might not be harmless.

Your entire argument seems to be, "I don't feel bad, so it must not be bad, so stop trying to make me feel bad!"

If the truth about something makes you feel bad about it, it might be time for some thoughtful examination of the matter, rather than going, "Nuh-uh! I do what I want!"

See, here's the thing. I've heard all this before. When I was growing up I heard these arguments constantly, only not about porn. The societal ill of the day then was D&D. I heard all the anecdotes about people driven to worshiping Satan. I heard all the arguments about how my personal experience in which none of those things happened must have been some fluke. I heard how it was inherently degrading to the players, even when they suffered no direct harm; how it taught them bad and unrealistic social skills. I see the exact same tendency to demonize anyone arguing against them by saying they're just trying to justify their vice.

The people there also said they weren't trying to take away my rights. They were lying.

I look at the arguments here, and nothing is different.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

plenty is different. you just don't want to acknowledge it. which you have proven with this laughable D&D comparison.

and, since you can't actually mount an argument in defense of your position, what you will now proceed to do is make up some anecdote (while attacking people for using anecdotes) about how this is just like Chick tracts about D&D.
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Irony



Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
then again, what can you expect from a morally stunted shitheap who thinks that a woman's expression of sexuality should be that of being used as a sexual service station for a man?

Hmm... let's think on this for a second. When I see vanilla porn, I see people having sex, with no real degrading of who those people are simply because they were filmed having sex. When you see vanilla porn you see the woman as an object who is nothing more than a "sexual service station" for the man.

I suppose at the very least we can both agree that one of those views is sexist.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

which just goes to prove Rune right. your entire argument is "i don't feel bad, so it must not be bad, so stop trying to make me feel bad!"

and since you continue to whine about it, obviously it's making some inroads.
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Irony



Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
plenty is different. you just don't want to acknowledge it. which you have proven with this laughable D&D comparison.

and, since you can't actually mount an argument in defense of your position, what you will now proceed to do is make up some anecdote (while attacking people for using anecdotes) about how this is just like Chick tracts about D&D.


How is it different? That anecdote wasn't meant as "proof" of anything. Merely as my reasons for being skeptical of the arguments presented here.

So, real question, how is it different? Am I supposed to take your anecdotes more seriously than theirs? Is your moral outrage somehow better than theirs?

Do you have data to show my contrary experiences as being legitimately a fluke?

How exactly is the moral outrage different this time around?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the most readily accessible porn on the Internet, the vanilla porn, fits entirely into the molds and generalizations described in this thread. scenes are designed around the man's pleasure and interest, not the woman's. whatever the man does to the woman is a function of his own sexual prowess, and is thus a matter of making him feel good, rather than his partner. the sex acts depicted are those that porn directors assume to be the ones that appeal to men (and since porn is primarily marketed to men, that turns into a feedback loop). the scene ends when the man is done. hell, as often as not it ends with a man ejaculating all over a woman's face. you don't see how that's degrading to women? you don't see how that reduces women in porn to objects? you don't see how that creates a dysfunctional model of sexual practice?

hence why people keep talking about alternatives, which you conveniently ignore. you can go see this for yourself; the evidence is strewn across the Internet. if you refuse to acknowledge that, then the problem is with you, not me.

i realize that you're just going to ignore all this because it makes you feel bad and you seem to think that your experience trumps the experiences other people presented in here, as if your experiences are that important or something. but this is worth thinking about, even though i know you won't.
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Irony



Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
the most readily accessible porn on the Internet, the vanilla porn, fits entirely into the molds and generalizations described in this thread. scenes are designed around the man's pleasure and interest, not the woman's. whatever the man does to the woman is a function of his own sexual prowess, and is thus a matter of making him feel good, rather than his partner. the sex acts depicted are those that porn directors assume to be the ones that appeal to men (and since porn is primarily marketed to men, that turns into a feedback loop). the scene ends when the man is done. hell, as often as not it ends with a man ejaculating all over a woman's face. you don't see how that's degrading to women? you don't see how that reduces women in porn to objects? you don't see how that creates a dysfunctional model of sexual practice?

hence why people keep talking about alternatives, which you conveniently ignore.

i realize that you're just going to ignore this because it makes you feel bad and you seem to think that your experience trumps the experiences other people presented in here. but this is worth thinking about, even though i know you won't.

No, I really don't feel bad, just a bit puzzled.

Here's another parallel, and this one is meant as a "proof" of sorts.

Remember the vulgarity trial against "Louie Louie"? Remember when the prosecution brought forth a set of vile lyrics for what the song supposedly said? Listen to the song, look at those lyrics, and you really hear them. All sorts of cussing and vulgarity. But they weren't really there.

Mind you, I'm not saying that they aren't there in porn, in the same way I'm not saying Louie, Louie not containing vulgar lyrics means than no songs do, but you hear what you expect, and you see what you expect.

Suppose we take some borderline case, a little dirty talk, none particularly explicit. You expect to see a woman being degraded so you do. I don't expect to see it so I don't. Is it really there?

Well, maybe, tone isn't like lyrics, there's no necessarily "correct" answer, but if it's not obvious then it's only when the person is predisposed to seeing the woman as "degraded" or as "a sex object" that they see it.


Last edited by Irony on Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's not a proof of anything but that you didn't understand what i said.

well, it's also a proof that you're not arguing in good faith. if you were arguing in good faith, you would go start picking apart the interpretation i provided, rather than rambling on about "Louie Louie."

so we're back to you arguing that since you don't feel bad, it must not be bad, and we should stop making you feel bad about it. although that's belied by the fact that you continue to argue about how you shouldn't feel bad about it, so apparently you really do feel bad about it, and you're doing as poor a job of convincing yourself of that as you are of me.
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Irony



Joined: 14 Apr 2010
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
that's not a proof of anything but that you didn't understand what i said.

well, it's also a proof that you're not arguing in good faith. if you were arguing in good faith, you would go start picking apart the interpretation i provided, rather than rambling on about "Louie Louie."

so we're back to you arguing that since you don't feel bad, it must not be bad, and we should stop making you feel bad about it. although that's belied by the fact that you continue to argue about how you shouldn't feel bad about it, so apparently you really do feel bad about it, and you're doing as poor a job of convincing yourself of that as you are of me.

Evasion noted.
Conversation terminated.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6020
Location: California

PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

giving up already, eh?

don't let the door hit your ass on the way out, you misogynistic shitheap!
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