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4/8/2013 - misguided
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only because I know you love to talk about them, how are your pants today, Stripey?
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:

I'm guessing you're Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps, then, because you can use that stuff for anything.



that stuff is _great_! especially the bottles.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geareye wrote:
Three things on today's discussions:
a) if someone can laugh at a joke, the joke is potentially and ultimately funny. Humor isn't a matter of popular vote.
b) whether jokes -or comic strips in this case- that rely on problematic stereotypes are necessarily problematic is up to debate. One could say, for instance that a joke involving black stereotypes doesn't actually make fun of black people ,but instead is used to indirectly make fun of the people using these stereotypes in real life, by showing how absurd/ridiculous/whatever these stereotypes were. One could make the case that that's irrelevant , because no matter what the intention was, the joke puts together 'laughs' and 'stereotype' and subconsciously reinforces the idea that this stereotypes are something 'amusing'. However, unless one could prove a definite link between the two, the debate wouldn't be settled so easily, if only for the simple reason that some people just don't want to let go of some jokes that some other people don't like and feel they might -quite possibly, but stil not 100% proved- promote said stereotypes.
c) Tat will write and draw what Tat will write and draw, he's successful at what he does and your objections to his ideas have all been adressed by Monique in the famous strip. You can debate the issues if you wish, but don't expect to affect Tat's working-process. Thatt would be catastrophic to the comic, by the way.



Racist jokes aren't funny.

Jokes relying on or involving stereotypes can only make fun of the people the stereotypes are about - unless the joke is calling the racism out. Even then, ironic winks to racism don't work because in a world that still has prevailing racism, those jokes are the same as being intentionally racist.

You are very correct on the last point.
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide wrote:
Eh, if you want my two cents, I find blaxploitation and/or political incorrectness as an art style, which people will argue that its either perfectly fine or horribly racist, or land in a position between those extremes.

Now this probably isn't the same thing, and please call me out on it if it is not, but remember the artists that made "art" that was Mother Mary in human feces or the Christ on the Cross in a jar of urine? There were many arguments on the validity of the art and whether it was acceptable or not.

I don't have a strong issue either way. Though I will say that I always thought the "blaxploitation" strips were just making fun of the art style.


The difference being that religion is something that people choose to believe, and race is something that you are born into and have no control over. People turn to and rethink religion every day. You can't pull that one with your race. They are not the same thing and only barely comparable.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

I'm guessing you're Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps, then, because you can use that stuff for anything.



that stuff is _great_! especially the bottles.


The almond and rose are quite amazing! Peppermint is okay for cleaning, but don't use it near your crotch for any reason.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Rothide wrote:
Eh, if you want my two cents, I find blaxploitation and/or political incorrectness as an art style, which people will argue that its either perfectly fine or horribly racist, or land in a position between those extremes.

Now this probably isn't the same thing, and please call me out on it if it is not, but remember the artists that made "art" that was Mother Mary in human feces or the Christ on the Cross in a jar of urine? There were many arguments on the validity of the art and whether it was acceptable or not.

I don't have a strong issue either way. Though I will say that I always thought the "blaxploitation" strips were just making fun of the art style.


The difference being that religion is something that people choose to believe, and race is something that you are born into and have no control over. People turn to and rethink religion every day. You can't pull that one with your race. They are not the same thing and only barely comparable.


Ah thank you, I understand the difference now.

Another thing though, if your going to be politically incorrect, you gotta hit EVERYONE, Foamy the Squirrel comes to mind as an internet version, South Park for mainstream media. You can't use it to justify racism.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
mouse wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

I'm guessing you're Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps, then, because you can use that stuff for anything.



that stuff is _great_! especially the bottles.


The almond and rose are quite amazing! Peppermint is okay for cleaning, but don't use it near your crotch for any reason.


Oh good god...thanks for the sudden flashback there stripey Sad
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
mouse wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

I'm guessing you're Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps, then, because you can use that stuff for anything.



that stuff is _great_! especially the bottles.


The almond and rose are quite amazing! Peppermint is okay for cleaning, but don't use it near your crotch for any reason.


Oh good god...thanks for the sudden flashback there stripey Sad


You're welcome!

Seriously, though, I didn't warn someone once and they learned the hard way. So I like to provide a PSA about it when I can. (Really, though, they should put a warning label! I'm sure they could fit one in somewhere between the moral ABCs and the homemade spermicide/douche recipe.))
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Last edited by stripeypants on Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
mouse wrote:
stripeypants wrote:

I'm guessing you're Dr. Bronner's Magic Soaps, then, because you can use that stuff for anything.



that stuff is _great_! especially the bottles.


The almond and rose are quite amazing! Peppermint is okay for cleaning, but don't use it near your crotch for any reason.


Oh good god...thanks for the sudden flashback there stripey Sad


Reminds me when I was a little kid and mixed up the Baby Rash cream with Capsaicin cream...
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....ow. Sad Ow. I feel for you, tiny child Rothide.
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Adyon



Joined: 27 May 2012
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aboutwhistles wrote:
stuff like the blaxploitation comic perpetuates negative stereotypes about black people and thus contributes to a system in which black people are seen as inferior and inherently different from whites. that's why it's racist. that's why laughing at it and finding it funny is racist- it's contributing to a broader system of inequality. it seems like a little thing, but little things, microagressions, add up to form a hostile culture towards anyone who isn't a white male.

Oooh exactly.

The reason the blaxploitation comic is bad isn't to do with simply using stereotypes for humor. Honestly, I've seen a lot of stereotyping used for good humor. Blaxpoitation uses an extremely negative and demeaning manner about it. It's not that all stereotypes are bad. And yes, some black men could laugh at it, because while it's a racist form of stereotyping, it's cleverly enough put together. But when something relies ONLY on the negative side of stereotypes on an already underprivileged group, it simply reinforces the same negatives we already had about said group in our society. That becomes racist. Making a joke that white guys are stuffy and unfunny doesn't actually demean them in a way to make society think less of them. Making all black people look like simpletons does.

On the other hand, making jokes that are stereotypes like black men liking fried chicken that don't actually demean them isn't the problem unless it's used in a way as to make them look lesser. The problem is if you can trace back the argument to a point where someone can say "It's funny because they're lesser than us". It's like royalty back in the day making fun of common workers for their silly simpleton interests.
Rothide wrote:
Another thing though, if your going to be politically incorrect, you gotta hit EVERYONE, Foamy the Squirrel comes to mind as an internet version, South Park for mainstream media. You can't use it to justify racism.

Yeah. I agree...actually. Though, as Crayven might not see the difference, while South Park has racist moments, the majority of the time it works to redeem them by more or less mocking the stereotype. Then it often has a redeeming moment for the characters where they realize the stereotype was dumb to begin with. That's the way stereotypical humor can be done properly. If the kids think something racist like that of the Blaxploitation Funk Bible, eventually it's rebuked. Tat just rebuked himself. I wonder why no one gets pissed at the kids for going politcally correct by the end of the episode! xD (Sadly I bet somewhere they do)

Granted, it's not perfect by any means. They've gone too far often. Though it's more than I can say for shows like Family Guy. They took a little bit of cleverness they had in the writing at the beginning and gave it away for sensationalist, stereotypical, and immature jokes.



Also, yeesh you all are making me cringe from talks of creams. =P
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Racist jokes can be funny. The issue is that context and actual respect towards the unironic issues of racism are absolutely paramount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Racist jokes can be funny. The issue is that context and actual respect towards the unironic issues of racism are absolutely paramount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY


I don't know.. I mean, I think the question is funny...to who? And the corollary question is, does the "funnyness" matter?

I think there are a lot of jokes, like the one about black children and sandboxes, for example, that most decent people would agree are kind of fucking horrible, but are just Hai-laaarious to, shall we say, a certain set.

The more I think about it the more it seems to me that whether or not it's possible for some audience somewhere to find these jokes funny has fuck all to do with their appropriateness.

And yeah, I agree with you about lack-of awareness and "ironic" racism. There was quite a lot of that hipster "ironic" racism that wasn't actually distinguishable from the real thing? It's like when Dave Chappelle quit.

Quote:
...Chappelle thought the sketch was funny, the kind of thing his friends would laugh at. But at the taping, one spectator, a white man, laughed particularly loud and long. His laughter struck Chappelle as wrong, and he wondered if the new season of his show had gone from sending up stereotypes to merely reinforcing them. "When he laughed, it made me uncomfortable," says Chappelle. "As a matter of fact, that was the last thing I shot before I told myself I gotta take f_____ time out after this. Because my head almost exploded."
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crayven wrote:

There's one thing to be racist and one thing to make fun of stereotypes - which by the way aren't even true of black people in Europe.
They don't have that accent, and they don't talk gangsta.


Have you considered that this is the reason you can't see the comic was offensive ? That stereotype is a lot less funny when you've actually seen it used to demean people, which is why the mainly American festers find it more offensive than you do.

That seems to be the a recurring theme with you though, you position yourself as a non-sexist/racist/..., but because you refuse to see the issues from any standpoint other than your own, you fail to see how your own behaviour is problematic too.
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Cactuar



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PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
crayven wrote:

There's one thing to be racist and one thing to make fun of stereotypes - which by the way aren't even true of black people in Europe.
They don't have that accent, and they don't talk gangsta.


Have you considered that this is the reason you can't see the comic was offensive ? That stereotype is a lot less funny when you've actually seen it used to demean people, which is why the mainly American festers find it more offensive than you do.

That seems to be the a recurring theme with you though, you position yourself as a non-sexist/racist/..., but because you refuse to see the issues from any standpoint other than your own, you fail to see how your own behaviour is problematic too.


NTM the whole idea of "talking gangsta" is a gross mischaracterization of and misunderstanding of the nature of AAVE, which is the exactly the kind of attitude that gets propagated by leaning on these stereotypes.

Suggested Reading!

And as for real-world harm caused by these attitudes, have a look at this video.

When this school district tried to integrate our linguistic knowledge of AAVE in order to teach standard English as a second language to native AAVE students, the public, without even an understanding of what was being proposed, kicked up a tantrum about "Ebonics in the classroom."

And thus because of people getting their information from relentlessly propagated offensive stereotypes instead of reality, there is a ton of resistance to doing something common sense that could help a lot of kids learn to read and write Standard English.
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