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2013-04-10: Djustice Unchained
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6052
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this thread is working out pretty great for me, though, because it means i get to beat up on Nazism, the dead horse that can never be beaten enough, and i get to beat up on antisemitism, and its weird gibbering sort-of defender! so by indarqtive logic, that means i'm beating up Nazis. and one of my childhood heroes was Indiana Jones, who also beats up Nazis, so that means i'm actually like Indiana Jones. except i also major in philosophy and i took a fencing class once, so by indarqtive logic, i'm basically a Jedi, so i am actually Jedi Knight Indiana Jones.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
incorrect

in fact the whole chronology here may prove educational, if you can be bothered to read it

Um, no, that still doesn't change anything. Literately from spring to fall of 35, a few short months, Jewish views changed radically. It was until the Nuremberg laws got passed in September that suddenly it became "Oh shit guys, this ain't gonna be like before". And it doesn't change the fact that when Triumph was made in 34 attitudes were different.

And everything else you brought up has already been answered
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

is this where i point out that you're contradicting yourself, pretending that the antisemitism of the Nuremberg laws just came out of nowhere in one moment on one hand, while earlier in this thread you insisted that antisemitism has been around for ages?

or is this where i point out that no, you have not actually answered any of those points, like, at all?

or is this where i point out Kristallnacht?

or is this where i ask you to source the claim that Jews in Germany were apparently all asleep or something in 1934 and then suddenly woke up in 1935?

or is this where i ask how any of this is actually excusing Riefenstahl from making a film that supported the fucking Nazis?

or--well, you know what, who really cares, for all i know you're going to come out next and say that gay people were actually sent by the evil overlord Xenu to tempt us away from the happy reproductive heterosexual sex that our Raelian alien creators want us to have
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

can you please answer in goofball murderporn apostrophe strewn screenplay form?
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
is this where i point out that you're contradicting yourself, pretending that the antisemitism of the Nuremberg laws just came out of nowhere in one moment on one hand, while earlier in this thread you insisted that antisemitism has been around for ages?

or is this where i point out that no, you have not actually answered any of those points, like, at all?

or is this where i point out Kristallnacht?

or is this where i ask you to source the claim that Jews in Germany were apparently all asleep or something in 1934 and then suddenly woke up in 1935?

or is this where i ask how any of this is actually excusing Riefenstahl from making a film that supported the fucking Nazis?

or--well, you know what, who really cares, for all i know you're going to come out next and say that gay people were actually sent by the evil overlord Xenu to tempt us away from the happy reproductive heterosexual sex that our Raelian alien creators want us to have

From a holocaust survivor: http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=1309

Wiesel expresses similar sentiments in Night.

Here's what you don't seem to be getting: the ubiquitous anti-semitism already present in Europe both allowed Hitler's plans to come to fruition while simultaneously making the Jews slow to realize the true degree of the dangers they felt. Generally speaking, widely accepted and condoned practices are NOT regarded as evil, and so was the case of anti-semitism in 1934.

Your own link shows the significance of the Nuremberg laws passed in September of 35: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/nurlaws.html

Once they had their citizenship stripped they realized this wouldn't be just another round of oppression.

I also like how you try to say I'm an anti-semite for pointing out facts you refuse to accept.

And again, Kristallnacht was in 38.

It's sadly apparent to me that I'm not the ignorant one in this case.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

man this thread sure is a thing
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Woah... Man. Like... Man.

I woke up this morning and opened the forum expecting something completely different... Man. This is terrible. And Darqcyde! Woah.

Leohan wrote:
I really don't want to jinx it now...

I... I'm so sorry. I couldn't have ever expected this.

BTW does Godwin's Law apply if someone is actually supporting some active members of the national-socialist party?
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Yrvani



Joined: 01 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wish I looked as good in a cowboy hat. Hats and me do not mix.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay darq has officially lost me. he went from insisting that antisemitism was everywhere to insisting that it wasn't a problem for Riefenstahl to insisting it was everywhere again and never, never has he gotten around to that whole "that doesn't make it okay to be an antisemite" part

oh well let me just open the ark of the covenant and melt his face off here, one sec
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

YOU CAN ENJOY YOUR MORAL RELATIVISM ALL YOU LIKE, BUT PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING MURDERED OR OTHERWISE SUFFERING DIRECTLY FROM BIGOTRY HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO REASON WHATEVER TO PLAY ALONG.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Nah, fuck that noise, if I hate you I wish bad to happen to you. Period. Besides, I don't see anyone calling people on all the rejoicing that's been going on over Tatcher's death elsewhere in the forums.

...I could argue for the fact that everyone has potential for change and thus death is never the solution. But most importantly, though, I think that you, like many before you, severely misunderstand the word "hate." Hate is not mild annoyance or disagreement. Hatred is a very, very powerful emotion.

You don't hate Roger Ebert. You disagree with him tops.
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suds



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
That quote by Ebert is just wow. I've never liked him, but now I'm glad he died a shitty death.


You should examine your life and find out the exact point you went from harmless goofball with a tenuous grasp on reality to hate-spewing horrible-death-rejoicing piece of shit individual. Some introspection seems to be in order. It may be educational.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
okay darq has officially lost me. he went from insisting that antisemitism was everywhere to insisting that it wasn't a problem for Riefenstahl to insisting it was everywhere again and never, never has he gotten around to that whole "that doesn't make it okay to be an antisemite" part

oh well let me just open the ark of the covenant and melt his face off here, one sec

I said several times that it was horrible, in several ways. The way anti-semitism was viewed in 1934 was simply not the same as it is viewed today. As my wife put it: If Hitler hadn't invaded other countries, and only killed the Jews in Germany, in all likelihood, no one would have stopped him or intervened.

Quote:
But that didn't make them evil, even the Jews felt it was par for the course. Generally speaking, non-Jews regularly treated the Jews like shit in Europe throughout history. The had been semi-transient in Europe for a long, long time.

Elie Wiesel came to my 10th grade social studies class and talked to us about the holocaust, and someone asked him why the Jews didn't leave sooner. He said that it had happened time and again. Most Jews figured they would be displaced like they had been so many times before. It was (as absurd as it sounds) and attitude of "Here we go again." with regards to their stance on Nazi politics. Mind you, a lot of people thought it might be worse than past times, but they were a minority. It was really some fucked up shit.


Quote:
It's not about were they "evil", it's about how they weren't viewed such AT THAT TIME. Now we can look back and say they were, but not in 1934. Them being anti-semitic, from a 1934 perspective, was something sadly, horrifically, something many a group had been before. This is important to think of when you think about Riefenstahl and how she made her film.


Quote:
No, I'm saying there's was a certain level of ignorance in 1934 about the Nazi's ultimate goals, and an equivalent ignorance was not present in regards to the slaves when Griffith made his film.

And I'm not giving a pass btw. It's a horrific fact: the world was A LOT more anti-semitic pre WWII. It's abhorrently horrible, but it's a fact, not my opinion.


Quote:
Oh man, that's not what I'm saying. Actually, as absurd as it sounds, go read the link I posted. From the Jewish perspective, the oppression against them strengthened their community.

I'm not saying it was ok or anything BTW. It's a fucking horrific truth that being anti semitic pre WWII was not viewed anywhere nearly the same as it was afterwards and especially not as it's viewed today. To try and compare Riefenstahl to Griffith and say that they did the same thing is simply disingenuous and not wholly true.


Quote:
The fact that the Catholic Church had clearly defined rules on different types of anti-semitism (that there was good and bad varieties) should tell you A LOT about how the world viewed the Jews during that time period.

Being anti-semitic in 1934 was simply not viewed as being "evil" by 1934 standards
.


Quote:
My point is that if anti semitism had been uncommon back in 1934, or contested by opposition like racism was in America in 1914, then you could hold both directors to the same moral standards.

I'm not excusing anyone of anything. I'm saying judging Riefenstahl as being the same as Griffith is simply wrong, especially if you look at their reactions later on.

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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

suds wrote:
Darqcyde wrote:
That quote by Ebert is just wow. I've never liked him, but now I'm glad he died a shitty death.


You should examine your life and find out the exact point you went from harmless goofball with a tenuous grasp on reality to hate-spewing horrible-death-rejoicing piece of shit individual. Some introspection seems to be in order. It may be educational.


I've had a strong dislike, borderline hate, for Ebert for years, but I feel that way about most film critics who are not Leonard Maltin. And a 'fuck you' to anyone and everyone who isn't chastising Him and everyone else who's treating Thatcher's death like it's a celebration.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were a moderator I would seriously for serious post "You should all be ashamed of yourselves." and lock the thread forever.
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