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2013-04-10: Djustice Unchained
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
Posts: 266

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Miss Magenta wrote:
Zhuinden wrote:
wrote:
I have a feeling Magenta will love all the badassery in this comic.


IT'S THE PERFECT STRIP TO WAKE UP TO ON MY BIRTHDAY, OF COURSE I LOVE IT.

<333


Happy birthday Miss! Very Happy
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the biggest things that's bothered me about the criticisms leveled against Django is that they all sound like vague, unspecific canned responses. The only legitimate gripe I can see is people feeling that the mandingo fighting was gratuitous, but that's about it.

Historical accuracy is moot because while not confirmed, it is both highly rumored and highly plausible. Slaves were property, not people. Combat events are damn near ubiquitous throughout the world. Many slave owners treated there slaves incredibly shitty. In the end, forget Tarantino, this is fucking Hollywood--historical accuracy is NOT their forte.

But like Bart said, it's the triteness that really set me off: "I'm offended, but I'm not going to talk about it, but just know that I am." With a statement like that, it's not even like you're agreeing with someone, it's effectively not contributing to the conversation at all. It's effectively answering the question 'Why?' with a terse response of 'Because.'

Therefore, if you're going to insult us by giving such a bullshit statement, then be prepared to get like in return.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
Tell me, how should a discussion progress after someone simply states "I am offended by X" ? Fill in the blanks to the following.

- Book Y is shit, because the characters are one-dimensional and the plot is predictable
* I'm offended by that.
- ....

And if your answer in any way includes asking the other person why he is offended, then that person should have laid out his objections in the first place. (emphasis added)


Why? Why should that person have done that? Why was that person under the obligation to obey your rules for discussion? What are your rules for discussion? Does the other person know them?

Maybe that's all that the person wanted you to know, that your opinion offended him/her. If you want more information on that, it's your obligation to ask.

All that said, if you have nothing to say in response to a person's comment, you can just ignore it. Doing so will not end the conversation. The person's reaction to being ignored might end the conversation, but that's not the same thing.

None of which changes the fact that I think Stephen Fry's remark indicates that he's a jerk -- or rather, that he meets my personal definition of what constitutes being a jerk -- which was really all I had to say on the topic to begin with.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3147
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
One of the biggest things that's bothered me about the criticisms leveled against Django is that they all sound like vague, unspecific canned responses. The only legitimate gripe I can see is people feeling that the mandingo fighting was gratuitous, but that's about it.

Historical accuracy is moot because while not confirmed, it is both highly rumored and highly plausible. Slaves were property, not people. Combat events are damn near ubiquitous throughout the world. Many slave owners treated there slaves incredibly shitty. In the end, forget Tarantino, this is fucking Hollywood--historical accuracy is NOT their forte.

But like Bart said, it's the triteness that really set me off: "I'm offended, but I'm not going to talk about it, but just know that I am." With a statement like that, it's not even like you're agreeing with someone, it's effectively not contributing to the conversation at all. It's effectively answering the question 'Why?' with a terse response of 'Because.'

Therefore, if you're going to insult us by giving such a bullshit statement, then be prepared to get like in return.


I haven't seen it, so I can't levy any criticisms, but this article says the prolonged scenes of violence against black characters are voyueristic, and different from how such scenes play out for other characters in this ilm and others by Tarantino.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/keli-goff/django-unchained-racism_b_2397150.html

If black people say it is racist, I'll go with that. Though I am confused why Donald Trump thinks it is a racist film.
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Tank



Joined: 20 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apropos to the discussion of Stephen Fry, I think it might be valuable to at least understand the quote in context.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnSByCb8lqY

The quote was spoken, off the cuff, as a critique of contemporary language. He was discussing, what he considers to be, the wide overuse of the words, "respect" and "offend", particularly within the context of blasphemy rights.

I might be biased of course, but I really don't think, even if you disagree with the content of his statement, that that one quote alone is enough to roundly condemn his character. That just seems a bit silly to me.


Last edited by Tank on Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Eristae



Joined: 06 Apr 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm just going to put it out there that Stephen Fry's statement had a context to it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/jun/05/religion.hayfestival2005
Quote:
The Incitement to Religious Hatred Bill was announced in the Queen's Speech last month. Under the proposals, it would become a criminal offence to use threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour if one 'intends to stir up religious hatred' or if their conduct is 'likely to stir up' religious hatred. Prosecutions could be brought only by the Attorney-General and a convicted person would face up to seven years in prison.

Fry refused to go as far as Hitchens in combatively denouncing the bill, but made clear he 'couldn't possibly obey a law' that allowed prosecutions of comedians or writers who caused offence.

He said: 'It's now very common to hear people say, "I'm rather offended by that", as if that gives them certain rights. It's no more than a whine. It has no meaning, it has no purpose, it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. "I'm offended by that." Well, so fucking what?'


He was making that statement in the context of people trying to make certain kinds of speech illegal.

That may or may not change people's minds, but either way it's good to know what was going on.
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Bart



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:

Why? Why should that person have done that? Why was that person under the obligation to obey your rules for discussion? What are your rules for discussion? Does the other person know them?


Because if a person wants convey information, he should do so without forcing the other person to go fishing for it. That's not exactly some arbitrary rule I invented, it's a ground rule for respectful communication.

Ronald wrote:
Maybe that's all that the person wanted you to know, that your opinion offended him/her. If you want more information on that, it's your obligation to ask.


If that's all the person wants to do, he is under no obligation to tell anyone why he is offended. However, if that is really all the person wants to do, let everyone know that he is offended for some nebulous reason, then that is indeed whining. Don't want to be accused of whining, try to work with the other person. Show him that what he says is unacceptable.

Now, to pre-empt a point that is certainly going to come up soon; the above does not apply to all instances of offensive speech. For blatantly racist/sexist/... remarks, where it should be clear to any normal person that it is in fact offensive, just saying that it is so is enough. Refusing to explain what that person should already now (or knows, but ignores anyway) is not whining.

That goes back to the point of that quote. "That is offensive" is a pretty strong phrase. It implies that the other person is doing something clearly unacceptable. However, because it is a strong phrase, it gets used often when it shouldn't. It gets used when the other person has no idea that what he is saying is wrong and it gets used when a person says something that is acceptable but the other person doesn't want to hear.

In both cases it's whining. In the first, if it is used without explaining why you're offended. Just stating you've been wronged and letting other people in the dark as to why is taking up a victim role without even trying to make the situation better. In the second, it's pretty clear why it's whining.
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:


Now, to pre-empt a point that is certainly going to come up soon; the above does not apply to all instances of offensive speech. For blatantly racist/sexist/... remarks, where it should be clear to any normal person that it is in fact offensive, just saying that it is so is enough. Refusing to explain what that person should already now (or knows, but ignores anyway) is not whining.



Keep in mind that what consists as "blatantly" racist/sexist/etc or what a person "should already know" is purely subjective and different according to each individual. At best, you could say that you would be refering to the statistical average but there's no reason to expect someone to follow that. The same goes for "normal person". Either you are meaning "usual person", or I have no idea what you mean by that.
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Rune



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tank wrote:
I might be biased of course, but I really don't think, even if you disagree with the content of his statement, that that one quote alone is enough to roundly condemn his character. That just seems a bit silly to me.


Agreed, though I'm right ready to condemn people who trot that picture out as an excuse to be rude, antagonistic, and actually hateful.
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Bart



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geareye wrote:
Bart wrote:


Now, to pre-empt a point that is certainly going to come up soon; the above does not apply to all instances of offensive speech. For blatantly racist/sexist/... remarks, where it should be clear to any normal person that it is in fact offensive, just saying that it is so is enough. Refusing to explain what that person should already now (or knows, but ignores anyway) is not whining.



Keep in mind that what consists as "blatantly" racist/sexist/etc or what a person "should already know" is purely subjective and different according to each individual. At best, you could say that you would be refering to the statistical average but there's no reason to expect someone to follow that. The same goes for "normal person". Either you are meaning "usual person", or I have no idea what you mean by that.


Sure, I was talking about the two extreme cases, but of course there is a whole lot in between.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fuck taboos. If any writer, director, musician or artist of any sort becomes afraid of touching any particular subject that he or she knows can improve his work, just because it just might offend someone, then that artist is seriously irresponsible to their chosen craft.

Be the best that you can possibly be. If others think that being your best is wrong, screw them, or at least don't let them stop you.
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Arkhron



Joined: 19 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rothide! Go out NOW of the account of Leohan!
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The power of Tuna compells you!
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Fuck taboos. If any writer, director, musician or artist of any sort becomes afraid of touching any particular subject that he or she knows can improve his work, just because it just might offend someone, then that artist is seriously irresponsible to their chosen craft.

Be the best that you can possibly be. If others think that being your best is wrong, screw them, or at least don't let them stop you.


Or listen to them to see what they are saying, try to be respectful and learn about lives which you don't actually live from those that do - then make your film.
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Fuck taboos. If any writer, director, musician or artist of any sort becomes afraid of touching any particular subject that he or she knows can improve his work, just because it just might offend someone, then that artist is seriously irresponsible to their chosen craft.

Be the best that you can possibly be. If others think that being your best is wrong, screw them, or at least don't let them stop you.


Or listen to them to see what they are saying, try to be respectful and learn about lives which you don't actually live from those that do - then make your film.

...No. Not really.

And this is an excellent point you are making, but not really. Mind you, if your work is inherently offensive then it's probably not that good, since good representation of offensive subjects is probably the artist's greatest challenge.

But if you have something to say and you believe that it's worth saying, then not doing so is, I insist, disrespecting your craft. Offensive things are part of the human nature. Reality is not pretty. Artists, who are supposed to deeply explore and show the human nature, can't be showing Worlds that EVERYONE is comfortable with. Some things in reality are not comfortable.
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