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2013-04-10: Djustice Unchained
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6115
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no

no, this is not a case where you're "supposed to apply moral relativism"

and we can very well hold both directors to the same moral standard because they both made films in support of racist regimes. both were "contested by opposition," unless you think that the Jews and Communists and Social Democrats and all of the Nazis' other enemies were actually totally cool with Hitler. you are totally excusing something; you are excusing Riefenstahl of doing the same thing for which you condemn Griffith.

then again, Riefenstahl made a show of recanting. which is rather strange, because your whole defense of her is that maybe she didn't realize that antisemitism is a bad thing. which is...pretty much in character for you, isn't it.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
no

no, this is not a case where you're "supposed to apply moral relativism"

and we can very well hold both directors to the same moral standard because they both made films in support of racist regimes. both were "contested by opposition," unless you think that the Jews and Communists and Social Democrats and all of the Nazis' other enemies were actually totally cool with Hitler. you are totally excusing something; you are excusing Riefenstahl of doing the same thing for which you condemn Griffith.

then again, Riefenstahl made a show of recanting. which is rather strange, because your whole defense of her is that maybe she didn't realize that antisemitism is a bad thing. which is...pretty much in character for you, isn't it.

Prove to me right now that anti-semitism was contested in the same manner and degree in Germany 1934 that racism was contested in the US in 1914. Also, prove to me that Jews felt the same about antisemitism in 1934 Germany as blacks felt about racism in 1914 US. Because the reality was it wasn't the same. Because they weren't. The Jews were absurdly accepting of such practices, and I'm not making this shit up, but it's for reals the whole "God saved us in Egypt, he has countless times, he will save us again."

Look, I have literately read dozens of books on the holocaust and WWII. I've had to critically examine Triumph of the Will in multiple classes. The shit I'm talking about, the moral standards I'm attributing to people of the times, are supported in so, so many works. It's sickening. The degree to which people "didn't care about the Jews" in 1934 Europe is simply insanely alien to modern morality. Don't forget that a large part of why so many Jews died was that Germany's neighbors also did not want want the Jews in their country.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

okay, two words:

"the Jews"

yes, that's right, the Jews contested the hell out of antisemitism in 1930s Germany! of course, Hitler was the one who had all the power, so we know how that story goes. nonetheless, the Jews did not just sit there and take it; that is the entire reason why Zionism ever became a thing, after all.

game, set, match, you gibbering fuckstain
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

incidentally, if you want to insist that Griffith is somehow a worse person than Riefenstahl because his movie got protested and Riefenstahl's wasn't (never mind that Riefenstahl also made her movie in a fucking police state), you might want to use some line other than "pretty much everyone was an antisemite!" because y'know what, in 1915, pretty much everyone in America was a racist. so if the prevailing attitude of antisemitism in Riefenstahl's time excuses her for having made a film that supports a racist government, you'll have to explain why that doesn't hold true for someone working amid a prevailing attitude of racism. i look forward to the assuredly pants-on-head fuckwitted insane brain slug things you have to say about that.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
okay, two words:

"the Jews"

yes, that's right, the Jews contested the hell out of antisemitism in 1930s Germany! of course, Hitler was the one who had all the power, so we know how that story goes. nonetheless, the Jews did not just sit there and take it; that is the entire reason why Zionism ever became a thing, after all.

game, set, match, you gibbering fuckstain

Cite your claim. Because they didn't. They did take it. They thought it would pass. They engaged in nothing like the race riots that America saw. Blacks in the south went north en masse, Jews did not flee Germany to nearly the same degree.
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Has Darqcyde always hated Jews, or is this a new thing?
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/kristallnacht/frame.htm

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_under_Nazi_rule

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_emigration_from_Nazi_Germany

also:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jewnurm.html

there's actually more, that's just what i found in the first couple minutes of wiki-ing and googling
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dennis J. Squidbunny wrote:
Has Darqcyde always hated Jews, or is this a new thing?


wait a second

guys! i've figured it out! Darqcyde is Mel Gibson!
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

this is such an awful thread, you guys.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/online/kristallnacht/frame.htm

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_resistance_under_Nazi_rule

also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_emigration_from_Nazi_Germany

also:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/jewnurm.html

there's actually more, that's just what i found in the first couple minutes of wiki-ing and googling

Triumph of the Will was made in 34 and aired in spring of 35, BEFORE THE EVENTS IN EVERY SINGLE SOURCE YOU CITED.
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Last edited by Darqcyde on Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i'm sorry, are you going to explain the relevance of this, Mr. Gibson?
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fall of 1935 was literately a different world from Spring of the same year, pure and simple.
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

incorrect

in fact the whole chronology here may prove educational, if you can be bothered to read it
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ShadowCell



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

by the way, i'm still waiting for, among other things:

-your explanation of why "opposition" is supposed to matter to the people who made the films in the first place
-your explanation of why comparing "opposition" to these two films should matter, when one took place in a segregated and racist but not totalitarian and genocidal country, while the other took place in a totalitarian genocidal police state
-your explanation of why we're supposed to exercise "moral relativism" for events that happened 78 years ago but not events that happened 98 years ago
-your explanation of why "people in 1935 Nazi Germany didn't think antisemitism was evil" is an excuse for Riefenstahl, but "people in 1915 America didn't think racism was evil" is not an excuse for Griffith
-your explanation of why it should be considered a contingent fact of history that antisemitism is a bad thing.
-your explanation of why prevalence of antisemitism should excuse the people who believe it for believing it.
-your explanation of why you hate the Jews. did they give money to an old lady once? i know that really pisses you off.

also,
-a pony. i'm not sure you have anything to do with that, though.


Last edited by ShadowCell on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dennis J. Squidbunny



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did he really say that Mel Gibson was buried after his insane rants because the Jews run Hollywood, or is that just a dream I had?
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