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2013-04-10: Djustice Unchained
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Cactuar



Joined: 10 Oct 2011
Posts: 105

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:

There's been a few comments about Django here and there, and I've been pretty much trying to bite my tongue. I think what set me off is the flippant attitude of "I find this highly offensive, but I'm only going to vaguely allude to it."

I happen to be extremely verbose in general and made a valiant effort not to drop 3 pages of teal deer in that comment, mostly in an effort not to start a huge thing. But oh well I guess I am just bad at not starting huge things on the internet. I have spilled many pixels on the subject of Django Unchained and movies in general and I am perfectly willing to spill many more, if...Augh! my brownies are going to burn I'm really leaving this time.

EDIT: Unchained! (and also, unburnt, after all~! )
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
Posts: 10261
Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd think I'd rather hear your own opinions later than that shit you posted, but about the article:

I wish I could say 'too soon for my white guilt to deal with' in 1688 words, . Also the amount of projecting and misinterpreting is truly impressive. Two white heroes? Um, I'm pretty sure "Blondie" has an equivalent amount of lines in The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly.

Black slavery isn't sacrosanct. Nothing in fiction is. But far too many people, both black and not, seem to be of this notion that slavery in America is somehow the worst atrocity in the history of mankind and it is therefore afforded this untouchable quality.

And Leo is a racist? The guy that did Blood Diamond is a fucking racist? Huh . . .

And nigger was used a realistic amount of times. And you don't need to be a target of an epithet to find it offensive. If you're not racists it should be initially grating, jarring, and uncomfortable to hear it said that much.

Overall, Tarantino tends to overstuff his films with lots of references and homages which I think I being misinterpreted as gratuitous or unnecessary.

I could go on more but I'm finally getting tired. I will say that I do agree there was a great chance missed to lampoon the KKK more, but who knows.
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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
Posts: 852

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote


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Rothide



Joined: 14 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That what you getting at Darq
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3059

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Until like ten seconds ago, I had no idea who Stephen Fry is. Now I know that he's "an English actor, screenwriter, author, playwright, journalist, poet, comedian, television presenter, film director and board member of Norwich City Football Club" and, based upon the gigantic image and caption there, a complete and utter jerk. You learn something new every day, I guess.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3059

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
Cactuar wrote:
crayven wrote:
Sigh i have written initially a long post, but knowing people around here's reaction i rather not start a discussion.
Let's just say the 3rd panel is very offensive to what real slaves endured.

The movie this is based on is very offensive to what real slaves endured, and also problematic along several other axes.

Fuck all that "too soon" noise, 'cuz that's all I'm hearing. Don't go throwin' around gross generalizations you're not going to back up.

And saying the movie is offensive is purely subjective and pretty much laughable. As someone who's spent the majority of his life around the dregs of society, PEOPLE ARE OFFENSIVE!!! THEY DO OFFENSIVE THINGS! THEY HAVE OFFENSIVE THOUGHTS! THEY SAY OFFENSIVE THINGS!

We've been using genocide, oppression, rape , torture, racism, bigotry, and all kinds of other shit as story elements essentially forever. Ever heard of a little movie called Spartacus? Hell, Gladiator was even more offensive to the slaves.

And fuck that dumb shit panel three is offensive to slaves. It's more denigrating to women if anything since no context knowledge is required to find it offensive.

Also, bad people do bad things, that why they are 'bad people'. Writers WANT you to hate those characters. Not all stories do or should make you feel good. Big D is mother fucking evil incarnate. He can rape women while whipping slaves and eating babies --- HE'S FUCKING EVIL INCARNATE.

FUCKING CHRIST--YOU'VE PISSED ME OFF SO MUCH WITH YOUR DUMBSHIT IGNORANT SHEEPLE MENTALITY, I DON'T EVEN KNOW IF I'M BEING COHERENT.


If it helps at all: No, you're not. Hope that clears things up a little.

BTW, the use of profanity gives people implicit permission to ignore what you're saying. Just FYI.
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starkruzr



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen Fry is actually pretty fucking incredible. And that quote of his isn't wrong.

"This is offensive because X, and it perpetuates stereotypes or denigrates the downtrodden, and fuck that" is a useful statement.

"I'm offended" is whining. Man/woman/other up. We can all a) do better than that in discourse and also b) work to better avoid being offensive/engaging in problematic behavior ourselves.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
Until like ten seconds ago, I had no idea who Stephen Fry is. Now I know that he's "an English actor, screenwriter, author, playwright, journalist, poet, comedian, television presenter, film director and board member of Norwich City Football Club" and, based upon the gigantic image and caption there, a complete and utter jerk. You learn something new every day, I guess.


You don't know Stephen Fry ? Good for you, you get the chance of discovering some great shows.

Also, I believe you misinterpret the quote. Everything you do and say can offend people. There are people who'll be offended because you do not like their favourite book or band. There are people who'll be offended because you do not agree with them in a political argument. There are people who'll be offended if you call them out on their bad behaviour. If such people say "You're criticizing my favourite book, that offends me and you should stop." , then "So fucking what that it offends you" is a perfectly good response. It's either that or never expressing an opinion again.

If you are offended for a good reason (sexism/racism/etc.) then you can make an argument why the other persons should stop doing so without falling back on "I'm offended".
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 3059

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkruzr wrote:
Stephen Fry is actually pretty fucking incredible. And that quote of his isn't wrong.

"This is offensive because X, and it perpetuates stereotypes or denigrates the downtrodden, and fuck that" is a useful statement.

"I'm offended" is whining. Man/woman/other up. We can all a) do better than that in discourse and also b) work to better avoid being offensive/engaging in problematic behavior ourselves.


What discourse? "I'm offended" is a statement of fact. I don't understand why anyone would consider a straightforward description of one's emotional response to be "whining." What Fry said, on the other hand, is just downright rude. He can't do better than that in discourse?

Anyone who can't bother to be civil shouldn't bother, period. IMHO.
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starkruzr



Joined: 05 Mar 2007
Posts: 118

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
What discourse? "I'm offended" is a statement of fact. I don't understand why anyone would consider a straightforward description of one's emotional response to be "whining." What Fry said, on the other hand, is just downright rude. He can't do better than that in discourse?

Anyone who can't bother to be civil shouldn't bother, period. IMHO.

His point, which is entirely valid, is that "I'm offended," full stop, is a conversation ender. It solves nothing, it helps nothing, it expresses *almost* nothing.
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bart wrote:
Ronald wrote:
Until like ten seconds ago, I had no idea who Stephen Fry is. Now I know that he's "an English actor, screenwriter, author, playwright, journalist, poet, comedian, television presenter, film director and board member of Norwich City Football Club" and, based upon the gigantic image and caption there, a complete and utter jerk. You learn something new every day, I guess.


You don't know Stephen Fry ? Good for you, you get the chance of discovering some great shows.

Also, I believe you misinterpret the quote. Everything you do and say can offend people. There are people who'll be offended because you do not like their favourite book or band. There are people who'll be offended because you do not agree with them in a political argument. There are people who'll be offended if you call them out on their bad behaviour. If such people say "You're criticizing my favourite book, that offends me and you should stop." , then "So fucking what that it offends you" is a perfectly good response. It's either that or never expressing an opinion again.


I missed the part where he mentioned the sentiment "That offends me and you should stop."

And, really, what else is he saying but that "I'm rather offended by that" / "I find that offensive" / "I am offended by that" offends him?

Well, so what?
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Ronald



Joined: 17 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

starkruzr wrote:
Ronald wrote:
What discourse? "I'm offended" is a statement of fact. I don't understand why anyone would consider a straightforward description of one's emotional response to be "whining." What Fry said, on the other hand, is just downright rude. He can't do better than that in discourse?

Anyone who can't bother to be civil shouldn't bother, period. IMHO.

His point, which is entirely valid, is that "I'm offended," full stop, is a conversation ender.


One, no, that doesn't at all seem to me to be what he's saying. Two, the phrase "I'm offended" is only a conversation ender if you want it to be, if you allow it to be. That's the only way any conversation ends, because one or more of the participants wants it to end, allows it to end.

"I find that offensive" does indeed have a meaning. It does indeed have a purpose, it is an expression of one's mental/emotional state. It has neither less nor more reason to be "respected" than any other such expression. If this guy doesn't like it, well, that sounds a lot more like his problem than anybody else's.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually really liked Django Unchained, as a movie. It was very cringey, and I realize that it didn't even get into the issues as much as it could have.

Plus there's the bit where people have criticized it because the white guys are really more involved than Django himself is. Dr. King Schultz is the one to give Django his freedom and guide him in the right direction. He even shoots the main bad guy. Django doesn't even get the satisfaction of doing that! At least he gets a happy ending, though.

(Freakin' dancing horse ruined the whole atmosphere.)

But yeah, I dunno, you walk away from that movie liking Dr. King Schultz best, I think. I did, at least. He was basically the only character who did the right thing for (mostly) unselfish reasons. That doesn't mean Django was a bad person, of course, but you don't really feel much for him aside from vague sympathy, I think.

Oh God, and poor Broomhilda. Being black and female is hard enough now, but back then... and then to have her just sit around and wait to be rescued for the entire movie. I think she screamed in horror/pain more than she talked. (Definitely failed the Bechdel test.)

Those are my only real gripes about it, I think.

ANYWAY, THIS COMIC STRIP is made of awesome. I love Xanthe, so I'm always a fan of seeing more of her badassery. <3 I just wish Django had been portrayed that well in the movie. (Notice there isn't a pro-feminist man guiding Xanthe along, which would be the equivalent of Django's Dr. King Schultz.)

I dunno, I guess I just wish Schultz had been less prominent. Confused
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:


I missed the part where he mentioned the sentiment "That offends me and you should stop."


What other reason is there to tell another person that what he's saying is offending you ? If someone does or says anything that is in any way negative to me, and I react to that person, it will be a reaction to try and get him to stop doing whatever he is doing. Maybe I should have phrased it "That offends me and I want you to stop." Which is at most a difference of tone, but otherwise the exact same message.

Ronald wrote:

And, really, what else is he saying but that "I'm rather offended by that" / "I find that offensive" / "I am offended by that" offends him?

Well, so what?


No, he's saying that it's a over-used phrase that gives little to no useful information in a discussion, which is not the same as saying he simply doesn't like it.
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Bart



Joined: 22 Jul 2006
Posts: 1572

PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ronald wrote:
starkruzr wrote:
Ronald wrote:
What discourse? "I'm offended" is a statement of fact. I don't understand why anyone would consider a straightforward description of one's emotional response to be "whining." What Fry said, on the other hand, is just downright rude. He can't do better than that in discourse?

Anyone who can't bother to be civil shouldn't bother, period. IMHO.

His point, which is entirely valid, is that "I'm offended," full stop, is a conversation ender.


One, no, that doesn't at all seem to me to be what he's saying. Two, the phrase "I'm offended" is only a conversation ender if you want it to be, if you allow it to be. That's the only way any conversation ends, because one or more of the participants wants it to end, allows it to end.

"I find that offensive" does indeed have a meaning. It does indeed have a purpose, it is an expression of one's mental/emotional state. It has neither less nor more reason to be "respected" than any other such expression. If this guy doesn't like it, well, that sounds a lot more like his problem than anybody else's.


Tell me, how should a discussion progress after someone simply states "I am offended by X" ? Fill in the blanks to the following.

- Book Y is shit, because the characters are one-dimensional and the plot is predictable
* I'm offended by that.
- ....

And if your answer in any way includes asking the other person why he is offended, then that person should have laid out his objections in the first place.
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