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Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, and the rest
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Snorri



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 10877
Location: hiding the decline.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindslicer wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
Snorri wrote:
and I think there are plenty of people in the NFL who have no problem with it either.


yeah, he has support, but i'm not so sure it'll go that well

before his announcement, teams would've had entirely legitimate reasons to pass on him; now it'll be hard to suss out those legitimate reasons from plain ol' homophobia. and that whole Martin-Incognito mess makes me think the NFL isn't as ready for a gay player as some people think it is.

still, i'm sure they said the same things about Jackie Robinson. i'm all for what he's done and i hope he takes the league by storm, but i feel like it's going to be a pretty ugly road.


As I understand it, he's projected as a mid-round pick at best, and it may not be his sexuality that could cause his position to drop, but the media attention it will draw and the distractions that may cause. Team officials will have to decide if they want to endure the inevitable media circus involving the first openly homosexual player, and every decision involving him will be viewed through the lens of whether or not his sexual orientation played a factor -- where he gets drafted, whether he's a starter or not, if he gets benched/traded/cut, the amount of money he's paid, the way his contract is structured, any endorsement deals, etc.


Speaking as an NFL team owner I disagree.


Wait, I'm not an owner and neither are you or anyone else on the internet and why the hell are we supposing any of this shit? This shit will be as big as a problem as people make it and I see literally no way how Sam being given a fair shake will be a problem.
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Ennis



Joined: 09 Jun 2013
Posts: 486
Location: Australia

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

WheelsOfConfusion wrote:
Facebook now allows custom gender and a neutral preferred pronoun setting.

I found this out via a friend this morning and it's so exciting! I had already used the hack to mostly get it this way, but now it's official and there's a custom gender option!
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 16633
Location: under the bed

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Samsally wrote:
Speaking of incapable of professionalism. One of my coworkers told my friend "well but you're okay because you don't flaunt it" about his gayness. He was justifiably offended. A bunch of us have decided to add some supportive decorations to our cubes.

Since I'm kinda known for having an obscene amount of geometric origami all over everything, I made him some to display. Everyone will know I made it. I gave him one in bi colors too cuz I had it laying around. Why the hell not. I made an ace version for myself, too.



i am very envious of your coworkers who get Samsally origami because it is seriously cool. (well, at least of the coworkers who are cool enough to deserve them. the idiots, not so much.)
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5896
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Speaking as an NFL team owner I disagree.


Wait, I'm not an owner and neither are you or anyone else on the internet and why the hell are we supposing any of this shit? This shit will be as big as a problem as people make it and I see literally no way how Sam being given a fair shake will be a problem.


some NFL people have said just that, actually--anonymously, of course--and some players have whined about the possibility that a dude who's into dudes might see them in the shower all nakey 'n stuff.

on the other hand, lots of team executives and owners have also gone on record to say they'll evaluate him on his sports merits alone and he'd be welcome in their organizations.

and when he's taken in the draft will determine how much money he makes on his first contract. the collective bargaining agreement between the players union and the league has a wage scale for rookies depending on, in part, which round of the draft they were selected. the further he falls, the less money he makes until his first contract is up.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 2786
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
Samsally wrote:
Speaking of incapable of professionalism. One of my coworkers told my friend "well but you're okay because you don't flaunt it" about his gayness. He was justifiably offended. A bunch of us have decided to add some supportive decorations to our cubes.

Since I'm kinda known for having an obscene amount of geometric origami all over everything, I made him some to display. Everyone will know I made it. I gave him one in bi colors too cuz I had it laying around. Why the hell not. I made an ace version for myself, too.



i am very envious of your coworkers who get Samsally origami because it is seriously cool. (well, at least of the coworkers who are cool enough to deserve them. the idiots, not so much.)


Samsally is the coolest.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why don't they just look at what happened to the US military when gay personnel were able to openly serve? The big experiment has already been done, and it is a success.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 6:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Why don't they just look at what happened to the US military when gay personnel were able to openly serve? The big experiment has already been done, and it is a success.

Probably because irrationality is inherently impervious to logic and reason.
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Darqcyde



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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Location: A false vacuum abiding in ignorance.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As if you needed another reason to despise Ted Cruz: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/13/ted-cruz-gay-marriage-bill_n_4780699.html
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 16633
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i was just thinking something about michael sam. he came out to his teammates last year. they all knew, and they were all fine with it. how many of those guys are also likely draft picks?

how many other college players are also out to their teammates, who are fine with it? (remember, michael sam's teammates kept his secret all year) how many of those guys are likely draft picks?

one wonders how many guys now in or about to enter the NFL are already aware that they are playing with gay teammates, and are just fine with it? that was certainly the case in the military - there were a lot of people who knew that one of their unit members was gay, and that it was no big deal.

it seems not to have occurred to anyone that it's not exactly like no NFL player has ever encountered a gay person before. the whole rest of the culture is changing, and guys who play football are changing with it. i guess i can see where the non-gay guys might not want to say anything about the fact that they know they have gay teammates, for fear of outing someone - but really, no one seems to have put this together. i would guess white baseball players prior to jackie robinson had less contact with blacks than modern heterosexual football players with gays. they probably said a lot of the same things then (about how this would be disruptive to the team and the locker room chemistry and the rest) - and it makes no more sense now than it did then.
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lostinube



Joined: 08 Apr 2013
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why in the world did I decide to read the comments on a men's figure skating article on Yahoo? Gay bashing (the usual about make figure skaters), racism (all the winners this year are Asian), homerism and general stupidity (Americans apparently do not know how scoring works in figure skating).
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 16633
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darqcyde wrote:
As if you needed another reason to despise Ted Cruz: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/02/13/ted-cruz-gay-marriage-bill_n_4780699.html


i really hope he continues pushing bills like this. the more he makes it clear that he and his cohorts are determined to drag everyone else backwards, the more likely it is that we will soon be rid of them.

i mean, seriously:
Quote:
"If you look at other nations that have gone down the road towards gay marriage, thatís the next step where it gets enforced," he said. "It gets enforced against Christian pastors who decline to perform gay marriages, who speak out and preach biblical truths on marriage."

i guess he's talking about those socialist europeans (who are probably all gay anyway, with their fashionable clothes and public transportation and all) - well, we have europeans among us. have you all just suppressed the stories about christian pastors being compelled to perform gay marriages? and what do you do to those staunch souls who refuse - throw them in prison? disbar them en masse? exile them to the U.S.? 'cause i haven't heard of any of these cases - so give us the truth already!
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Echo



Joined: 18 Jul 2013
Posts: 232

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, in England, gay marriage hasn't quite become legal yet. The first ones should be happening at the end of next month.

As for "forcing" people to perform gay marriages, we have this "quadruple lock" thingy to protect conservative religious organisations.

1. Performing gay marriages is an opt-in thing for religious organisations
2. No religious organisation can be compelled to have a gay marriage performed on their premises
3. Religious organisations and ministers are specifically excluded from discrimination laws over refusing to perform gay weddings (which really should have been a hint that all this was permitting discrimination, but oh well)
4. The Church of England in particular is banned from conducting gay marriage, even if they want to, unless a new gay marriage law is passed.

So really, that's a huge amount of effort to allay the concerns voiced by conservative religious types, while still pissing them off by making gay marriage legal. And pissing off the pro-gay-marriage crowd because they're still not equal, they have to dissolve any existing civil partnerships prior to marriage, and then they'll struggle to find a church to get married in if that's what they want.

So no imprisonment, no disbarring for refusing to perform gay marriage, no exile to the US or anything. Religious figures get to go on refusing to marry two people of the same sex. But they're going to have to recognise that such marriages exist, or will do in a month and a half.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Canada has gay marriage. Every day you hear about them oppressing the rights of pastors, like this guy who was told to apologize for disparaging gay marriage by a "quasi-judicial" provincial human rights commission just a few years after gay marriage was nationalized... which was then overturned (rightly) by the provincial appeals court. If that's not prophetic, I don't know what is.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
Posts: 645

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IF it hasn't been mentioned yet:

Virginia's gay marriage ban was struck down! (BOO YAH!) Now we can truly say Virginia Is For Lovers.

(Also kudos to the newly elected Attorney General, who literally went 'I'm not going to be defending the Gay Marriage Amendment in court, because quite frankly I think it's unconstitutional' and pissed off a lot of folks by doing that.)
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 5896
Location: California

PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i was just thinking something about michael sam. he came out to his teammates last year. they all knew, and they were all fine with it. how many of those guys are also likely draft picks?


at least one, Kony Early, was his partner along the defensive line, and will probably be taken much higher in the draft. and the Missouri Tigers had one of the best seasons in school history while everyone knew Sam was gay, so apparently "being distracted by a gay player" gets you to the SEC Championship Game and wins you the Cotton Bowl.

on the other hand, the other big story in the NFL today is the Richie Incognito/Jonathan Martin thing. they just released an independent report on the whole situation, and it doesn't look good. granted, this is only the Miami Dolphins, which have shown themselves in other ways to be pretty dysfunctional, but i think there's merit to having some concern about how an NFL locker room would react to Michael Sam.

in the end, i think he'll be accepted, if only because he only needs one team to give him a chance and there are plenty of coaches and executives who will drop the hammer on anyone who makes an issue of it. but that depends on which team drafts/signs him.
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