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Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, and the rest
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:

i guess he's talking about those socialist europeans (who are probably all gay anyway, with their fashionable clothes and public transportation and all) - well, we have europeans among us. have you all just suppressed the stories about christian pastors being compelled to perform gay marriages? and what do you do to those staunch souls who refuse - throw them in prison? disbar them en masse? exile them to the U.S.? 'cause i haven't heard of any of these cases - so give us the truth already!


the Dutch: they see us gay-ing, they hating

in all seriousness, we do have pastors who don't wish to perform gay marriages. couples seek other pastors who are more than willing to do so and all of us look at the pastor and think s/he's a weirdo. that's all.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it is interesting to me that cruz, as a catholic, is apparently unaware that the catholic church is allowed to set all sorts of restrictions on what its priests do that pastors in other religions are quite happy to do - like marry divorcees. and no one has ever considered forcing them to change. it kind of makes me wonder just how much all these guys actually even know about their religion and churchgoing in general. a lot of churches want some assurance that you are at least a believer in their version of religion, preferably even a congregant, before they will marry you in the church. and that's fine - no one insists that they have to marry just anyone who walks in off the street. just that people have the right to get married _somewhere_.


but those canadians, now. i always knew that apparent polite good nature hid a totalitarian philosophy. how dare they force people to forgo hate speech! what do they think jesus is, some sorta forgiving, love-thy-neighbor, accepting-all-who-seek-him freak?
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mouse



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
mouse wrote:
i was just thinking something about michael sam. he came out to his teammates last year. they all knew, and they were all fine with it. how many of those guys are also likely draft picks?


at least one, Kony Early, was his partner along the defensive line, and will probably be taken much higher in the draft. and the Missouri Tigers had one of the best seasons in school history while everyone knew Sam was gay, so apparently "being distracted by a gay player" gets you to the SEC Championship Game and wins you the Cotton Bowl.

on the other hand, the other big story in the NFL today is the Richie Incognito/Jonathan Martin thing. they just released an independent report on the whole situation, and it doesn't look good. granted, this is only the Miami Dolphins, which have shown themselves in other ways to be pretty dysfunctional, but i think there's merit to having some concern about how an NFL locker room would react to Michael Sam.

in the end, i think he'll be accepted, if only because he only needs one team to give him a chance and there are plenty of coaches and executives who will drop the hammer on anyone who makes an issue of it. but that depends on which team drafts/signs him.


clearly the dolphin's management are shit managers - allowing that amount of toxic activity between players and staff. it sounds like they let incognito and his buddies pick on anyone they wanted for any reason they wanted. this is team-building?

but there are managers and coaches that don't put up with that sort of shit - and i imagine only someone like that would give him a chance. the haters are going to look for any excuse to pass him over.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
Snorri wrote:
Speaking as an NFL team owner I disagree.


Wait, I'm not an owner and neither are you or anyone else on the internet and why the hell are we supposing any of this shit? This shit will be as big as a problem as people make it and I see literally no way how Sam being given a fair shake will be a problem.


some NFL people have said just that, actually--anonymously, of course--and some players have whined about the possibility that a dude who's into dudes might see them in the shower all nakey 'n stuff.

on the other hand, lots of team executives and owners have also gone on record to say they'll evaluate him on his sports merits alone and he'd be welcome in their organizations.


Yeah but those NFL people aren't exactly at the top of the decision making progress.

I mean, I am not surprised that some people made anonymous comments like that, I'm saying that I see no reason to suppose there is any truth to it. The general message that people have actually dared to put their names under is that they have no problem and will judge him on their merits.

Alluding to tensions and problems that people totally have but won't admit to having is really the last refuge of those against progress. Giving those people an anonymous platform is just bullshit.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yinello wrote:
mouse wrote:

i guess he's talking about those socialist europeans (who are probably all gay anyway, with their fashionable clothes and public transportation and all) - well, we have europeans among us. have you all just suppressed the stories about christian pastors being compelled to perform gay marriages? and what do you do to those staunch souls who refuse - throw them in prison? disbar them en masse? exile them to the U.S.? 'cause i haven't heard of any of these cases - so give us the truth already!


the Dutch: they see us gay-ing, they hating

in all seriousness, we do have pastors who don't wish to perform gay marriages. couples seek other pastors who are more than willing to do so and all of us look at the pastor and think s/he's a weirdo. that's all.


But pastors don't really marry people anyway.

The legal marriage you get from the government is a different thing though. There has been some discussion over whether or not government-employees who have personal objections to gay marriage should be allowed to refuse to marry people. (They can still marry of course, just have to get someone else to do it which isn't a problem because there are many who have no objections.)

It is currently still allowed to refuse to marry same-sex couples if you have religious objections. So even government employees who aren't religious figures are allowed to refuse. What pastors and priests do is their business, they aren't obligated to marry anyone and can't actually marry anyone anyway.

So Ted Cruz is just flat out wrong. The Netherlands is the first country to legalize it and even we allow our government employees to opt out.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with letting people opt out of stuff like this is that it can effectively negate a gay person's ability to exercise their legal rights. There is absolutely no reason to allow it, especially with government positions. If someone is being paid by the government, they need to be willing to serve everyone.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
The problem with letting people opt out of stuff like this is that it can effectively negate a gay person's ability to exercise their legal rights. There is absolutely no reason to allow it, especially with government positions. If someone is being paid by the government, they need to be willing to serve everyone.


Which is indeed why the current situation is controversial. But those employees who object are in such a minority that practically there isn't much of a problem. The Netherlands being as small as it is the ability to get another person to do it is always there. Any couple wishing to get married can get married and the government will make it happen.

A lot of cities were totally not ok with this rule by the way. All the big cities and loads of the smaller ones objected in principle, though forcing it didn't work out either. One of the problems is that the employees concerned are special employees who are the only ones capable of marrying people. They're basically government priests selected by local government. And in the more conservative christian places they come from local stock and it is not surprising that they have problems with something that has only been legal for a little over ten years. Frequently they've been doing it for longer than that and are basically used to the distinction between church and state being way more murky than it is in other places.

We basically separated church and state by making the state a little bit churchy (a wedding is a ceremony that looks like a legal proceeding) and now have to deal with it.
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Sojobo



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Which is indeed why the current situation is controversial. But those employees who object are in such a minority that practically there isn't much of a problem.

I would argue against accepting "not much of a [discrimination] problem" when you could instead have "no [discrimination] problem" by firing these employees who are refusing to do their jobs. If, as you say, they are in such a minority, then the cost to train their replacements wouldn't be particularly high.
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Snorri



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sojobo wrote:
Snorri wrote:
Which is indeed why the current situation is controversial. But those employees who object are in such a minority that practically there isn't much of a problem.

I would argue against accepting "not much of a [discrimination] problem" when you could instead have "no [discrimination] problem" by firing these employees who are refusing to do their jobs. If, as you say, they are in such a minority, then the cost to train their replacements wouldn't be particularly high.


Nobody is concerned about the costs. Some of them have been fired over refusing to marry same-sex couples and plenty of municipalities don't hire anyone who would refuse.This isn't an issue of ability or even national will, this is an issue of local lack of will. Some municipalities simply refuse to fire people for it. And you can't really force them to.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's definitely not how it works in the US.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no, in the u.s. you can have pharmacists refusing to fill birth control prescriptions and even confiscating the prescription so you can't go get it fill elsewhere because RELIGION!

although i don't think the minister or whatever can confiscate your marriage license, should you go to one who doesn't want to marry you. actually, i don't know where the license fits in to the whole thing - does some legal entity have to check it before the ceremony can proceed? can you be ticketed for marrying without a license? can you get it reissued if it is lost, stolen or strayed?


also, i can't tell you how shocked i am to hear that ted cruz is wrong. shocked.
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lostinube



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 25, 2014 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jason Collins becomes the first openly gay athlete to play in any of the big four sports leagues in the US.

After the game.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arizona won't be allowing bigoted Christians to refuse to serve gay or suspected gay people - http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/26/politics/religious-freedom-states/

Texas ban on marriage equality is struck down because it 'demeans the dignity of gay people for no apparent reason.' - http://www.chron.com/news/article/Texas-ban-on-gay-marriage-ruled-unconstitutional-5270241.php

All the US states where marriage and civil unions are legal - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/02/26/the-state-of-the-states-on-same-sex-marriage-in-1-map/

Uganda has decided to imprison gay people for life, which is a slight improvement on their previous decision to execute gay people - http://www.washingtonblade.com/2014/02/26/ugandan-president-signs-draconian-anti-gay-bill/

The Kinsey Institute is going to investigate the US military's outdated policies regarding and treatment of transgender people - http://transnews.org/2013/08/23/kinsey-study-transgender-military/

A show called 'Ze' will star a transgender character. Yay! (Have not found info on whether there will be POC representation or what) - http://transnews.org/2013/09/17/first-trans-lead-character-us-tv/
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
All the US states where marriage and civil unions are legal - http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/02/26/the-state-of-the-states-on-same-sex-marriage-in-1-map/

Left coast is the best coast!

Sadly, moving from unions to marriage equality in OR is going to be harder than it ought to be. They got swept up in the constitutional change fervor a decade ago and changing it back is going to be really hard. Disappointing for a state that's otherwise pretty rad.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm always surprised by that aspect of Oregon. Sad


This medical resource is available for doctors who need info on trans people - http://project-health.org/transline/
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