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Sexual Orientation, Gender Identity, and the rest
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Finnegan



Joined: 01 May 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
Finnegan wrote:
The Boy Scouts are considering lifting their ban on gay scouts. My family has always been involved in scouts; my grandfather, father, my brothers, and myself all became eagle scouts. I always thought it was kind of sad that my older brother, who was always way more involved than the rest of us and got so much out of it, has been refusing to let his son join scouts because of their anti-gay position. The new proposal will only lift the ban on youth scouts, not adult leaders. I guess it's a step in the right direction but it's really sad that some people still equate homosexuality with child molestation. It would be nice that by now, despite someone's personal and/or moral views, that sort of willful ignorance of a fact wasn't so pervasive. In my time working summers at a scout camp I've known several gay scout leaders (not openly gay but close enough friends that they came out to me). I've unfortunately also crossed paths with a few scout leaders who I later learned had been jailed for molestation, none of whom were gay, and yet this is still used to justify people's homophobia.

Just a note on this. Most pedophiles are straight.


that's what I just don't get about anti-gay legislation and bans. pedophilia and homosexuality are two completely separate things. could a gay man molest a child? yeah, sure he could (though I can't recall ever hearing a story about it and you just know something like that would be paraded about to try to rally anti-gay support) but the fact is that, if this did happen, his homosexuality would be completely unrelated to his pedophilia. gay bans "for the safety of our children" is just a way to justify their homophobia.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, there is NAMBLA, which does get brought up - but yeah, from what some people say you would think _every_ homosexual relationship is pedophilia (hence all the fears that if we make gay marriage legal, then the next thing you know, the gays will be marrying small boys right and left, which is stupid on many levels, but there you are).
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure that most gay rights groups condemn NAMBLA for it's beliefs, practices, and honestly probably to avoid more people making a connection between homosexuality and pedophilia.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The people who think gay men are pedophiles literally think that gay is a way to describe a pedophile. So they hear people use words like gay and LGBT and queer in a positive light, and they are menally substituting the word 'pedophile' in there. They literally have no concept that gay is actually justa description of what consenting adults someone finds attractive or wants to have sex with.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
I'm pretty sure that most gay rights groups condemn NAMBLA for it's beliefs, practices, and honestly probably to avoid more people making a connection between homosexuality and pedophilia.


i think pretty much everyone condemns NAMBLA - sounds like it's down to just a handful of diehards. but if you want to find a way to de-legitimize the rights of gay people, you want to keep trumpeting about the most out-there group, and hope that talking about them enough makes them seem more central than they are.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 10:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holy shit, I decided to look at their website. One of the first links is, "If Oprah's Lying About Being Sexually Abused As A Child, Who Else Might Be?" They also have kind words about Joe Paterno.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
They also have kind words about Joe Paterno.


I assumed that was sarcasm and looked for the article ready to get pissed, but they really did have only nice things to say and gave him the respect (that I think) he deserved during that short time between when the sandusky story broke and his death.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe I am ill informed about the whole Sandusky affair, but it doesn't seem like Paterno deserved any respect.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Tue May 07, 2013 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

the impression i got was that paterno was rather straitlaced and ignorant about ...well, i can only say 'sex'. so he was really naive about the situation. i think it literally never occurred to him that such things can happen, and so he just didn't see them.

so i think maybe 'deserves no respect' is a little harsh; i'm not sure you could have expected anything different. not to say that he _shouldn't_ have been more on top of things, and he definitely should have done more (like, at the least, educate himself about pedophilia and child abuse). but i'm not sure the entire assessment of the man should be based on the sandusky affair.
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why the hell would you want to be defended by or spoken highly of by NAMBLA of all groups?

And I doubt that Paterno was all that straitlaced and ignorant, but rather he and the other guys who apparently helped cover it up were more worried about their school's reputation then protecting the kids. Reputation seems to be the most important thing to a lot of large universities.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tekii wrote:
Why the hell would you want to be defended by or spoken highly of by NAMBLA of all groups?


I can't imagine anyone would, but the article condemns Sandusky for his abuse of children and says some flattering and true things about Paterno. Believe me, I'm not feeling comfortable at all agreeing with a NAMBLA article, let alone defending it, but I agree with their assessment.

stripeypants wrote:
Maybe I am ill informed about the whole Sandusky affair, but it doesn't seem like Paterno deserved any respect.

Tekii wrote:
And I doubt that Paterno was all that straitlaced and ignorant, but rather he and the other guys who apparently helped cover it up were more worried about their school's reputation then protecting the kids. Reputation seems to be the most important thing to a lot of large universities.


I've been trying really hard not to get into a debate about this because it is kind of personal for me. I've already written like four very lengthy posts that I deleted rather than posting. Basically, I knew the guy and all of this is so contrary to who he was. I just don't believe he is guilty of anything more than not acting beyond what the university's policy required him to do. The university board of directors, on the other hand, are exactly the type of people Tekii was describing, complete sleaze bags. I don't doubt that they orchestrated a coverup.
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WheelsOfConfusion



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are y'all so down on the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes?
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Tekii



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Finnegan wrote:
Tekii wrote:
Why the hell would you want to be defended by or spoken highly of by NAMBLA of all groups?


I can't imagine anyone would, but the article condemns Sandusky for his abuse of children and says some flattering and true things about Paterno. Believe me, I'm not feeling comfortable at all agreeing with a NAMBLA article, let alone defending it, but I agree with their assessment.


I don't see where the article condemns what Sandusky did at all.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
the intense visceral reaction to Jerry Sandusky's alleged improprieties

Quote:
the blind hysteria regarding the alleged actions of his assistant


no, you guys are absolutely right. I've already admitted to having a bias as I knew the man personally and have also admitted that I went into reading the article with the expectation of it really pissing me off. So when it ended up focusing on Paterno in a positive way I guess I let my bias kick in. after rereading it a few times it really does read differently and I now see that not only were they not saying "Paternois a good guy, don't lump him in with this other guy" it's implying that not only was he aware but, because of the time in which he grew up, that he dismissed it as harmless fun.
so thanks for calling me out on that, I'm much more comfortable being disgusted by it than agreeing with it.
I still really doubt he was covering for sandusky, though.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed May 08, 2013 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a bias as a friend of mine knew people involved. I am also inclined toward suspicion because of how football culture in the US encourages sex crimes and harassment to be totally ignored.
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