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2013-04-22: For The Ladies
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
We can know what's normal for a bee because all bees belonging to a certain category are supposed to live in the same way.


says who?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
I disagree.

There are a couple things I accept out of practicality, sure: the world is, for the most part, what the amalgamation of all my observations of it makes it seem to be, at least within the scope of my experience, and empirical evidence regarding it is mostly reliable. Neither of those are absolutes, either.

As Descartes so aptly showed us, there is no reason to assume your senses are truthful. There is no way to test whether they reflect a real external world or a false one, because all evidence comes through them. We accept that our senses are accurate because it's a pain in the ass not to (there's no other way to get on in the world).


thanks for rewording part of what I said as though you were explaining something to me, I really appreciate it

Dogen wrote:


Quote:
Anyway, that's not what I was talking about. I was thinking of the sort of irrationality based in something like, "I am a Democrat yaaaaaaaa all Republicans are evil yaaaaaaaaa" or similar stupidity

Oh, stereotypes and prejudices, okay. Yeah, those are irrational by definition.


not just that, though, also the stuff people turn on themselves, the "I am a Democrat/Republican/Catholic/Atheist/Patriot therefore I must believe X" type stuff
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:

There is no codex at all. Humans are individuals. We can know what's normal for a bee because all bees belonging to a certain category are supposed to live in the same way.


We agree that there is no codex for humans. I don't understand why you assume that there is one for bees, though.

"Supposed"? According to whom? By whose authority? Who decided how bees are supposed to act and how not?

And by the way, that person might also get ideas about how humans are "supposed" to act, if the bee-project runs smoothly...
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Leohan



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The hive decides how a bee should work. Along with all of their instinctive drives.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
The hive decides how a bee should work. Along with all of their instinctive drives.



Have we really figured out how hive minds work to such a degree that we can say things like that?
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Dogen wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
I disagree.

There are a couple things I accept out of practicality, sure: the world is, for the most part, what the amalgamation of all my observations of it makes it seem to be, at least within the scope of my experience, and empirical evidence regarding it is mostly reliable. Neither of those are absolutes, either.

As Descartes so aptly showed us, there is no reason to assume your senses are truthful. There is no way to test whether they reflect a real external world or a false one, because all evidence comes through them. We accept that our senses are accurate because it's a pain in the ass not to (there's no other way to get on in the world).


thanks for rewording part of what I said as though you were explaining something to me, I really appreciate it

*shrugs* Practicality isn't a rational basis for belief, so we're back to the absolute statement that your acceptance of all sense perception is irrational.

Quote:
Dogen wrote:

Quote:
Anyway, that's not what I was talking about. I was thinking of the sort of irrationality based in something like, "I am a Democrat yaaaaaaaa all Republicans are evil yaaaaaaaaa" or similar stupidity

Oh, stereotypes and prejudices, okay. Yeah, those are irrational by definition.


not just that, though, also the stuff people turn on themselves, the "I am a Democrat/Republican/Catholic/Atheist/Patriot therefore I must believe X" type stuff

Ah, I see where you were going with that. Our self-concept is defended by the ego, not known for being rational or even particularly honest.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ShadowCell wrote:
there's also the point that if our sense perceptions weren't generally reliable, our species would have been eaten or walked ourselves off cliffs or starved or whatever long before we ever reached the point of being able to question whether our sense perceptions are generally reliable.

Brain in a vat/evil genius?
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dogen wrote:
ShadowCell wrote:
there's also the point that if our sense perceptions weren't generally reliable, our species would have been eaten or walked ourselves off cliffs or starved or whatever long before we ever reached the point of being able to question whether our sense perceptions are generally reliable.

Brain in a vat/evil genius?


*gasp*

god would never allow anything like that to happen!

serious answer, though, is "so what?"
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm the last to argue for any sort of objective truth

but yeah, everything seems to indicate that I would die if I didn't live as though the world existed

the 'brain in a vat' thing is the same as any other unjustified unfalsifiable claim in that there is absolutely no good reason to believe it
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

... So all of your beliefs about the world are based on irrational assumptions about the qualities of the external world for which you have no real evidence. That's pretty much it. Am I suddenly required to have a broader point?
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

there are a billion such things things you could choose to believe, many with their own threats (maybe if you don't recognise that this is all a dream, you'll never get out? but maybe if you do recognise that this is all a dream, the robots will kill you?) but only one (admittedly fuzzy) reality coming through empirically

the rest have another layer of fuzzy abstraction

it's like how you can ignore back-mutation in most models because the mutation rate is so small, it's insignificant once you square it

they can be ignored, if not truly disputed


it's sufficient to allow yourself to change your mind about the nature of reality when presented with new evidence, plus this sort of pointless philosophizing has absolutely nothing to do with anything else in this thread
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Last edited by Heretical Rants on Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:10 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
the 'brain in a vat' thing is the same as any other unjustified unfalsifiable claim in that there is absolutely no good reason to believe it

That's the whole point: you have no reason to believe either way (because you can't prove or disprove either hypothesis). You believe you are not a brain in a vat because it's convenient. I just like the idea that nothing's certain. Smile
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:

I'm the last to argue for any sort of objective truth

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Dogen



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did you really just try to shut me down by calling my rumblings off-topic? On Sinfest? That seems like a disingenuous complaint.
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Heretical Rants



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

k.

I changed it to a quote of me agreeing with you.
y'know, the one that didn't stop you from arguing with me anyway.
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