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this is why we shouldn't torture
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kame



Joined: 11 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, then there's this whole business with the United States signing this. Though they do have this caveat.

Quote:
The United States declares, pursuant to article 21, paragraph 1, of the Convention, that it recognizes the competence of the Committee against Torture to receive and consider communications to the effect that a State Party claims that another State Party is not fulfilling its obligations under the Convention. It is the understanding of the United States that, pursuant to the above-mentioned article, such communications shall be accepted and processed only if they come from a State Party which has made a similar declaration.


So if you haven't signed this, you've got no right to bitch if a signatory tortures your people. That makes all kinds of sense.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

looks like you could sign it and bitch about another signee who is torturing someone else's people, though...whether or not that someone else signed it.
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Krazy Stixx



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So...am I allowed to torture yet?

Because I got these people chained up in my basement...
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trustedfaith



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PLEASE WHY FOR THE LOVE OF PIZZA IS BUSH'S APPROVAL RATING REBOUNDING?!? I hate people. Sad
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Desire



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My dad came over for dinner last night and I realized that because of Bush, my dad and I could actually have a long political conversation without argument.

It might be a first.


It kind of freaked me out though that Bush scares my dad too. My dad isn't the type of man to be afraid of anyone.
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mouse



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well, maybe we are getting out of the business:

Quote:
September 21, 2006
Agreement Is Reached on Detainee Bill
By BRIAN KNOWLTON International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON, Sept. 21 — Three Republican senators said this afternoon that they had reached an agreement with the Bush administration on legislation to clarify which interrogation techniques can be used against terror suspects and to establish trial procedures for those in military custody.

“We did our duty,” said Senator John W. Warner of Virginia, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, one of the three. He noted that the legislation would still need close study by both houses of Congress.

The three, including Senators John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, met at the White House with Stephen J. Hadley, the national security adviser. He stood behind Mr. Warner’s shoulder as the senator announced the agreement.

“There’s no doubt that the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions have been preserved,” Mr. McCain said, news agencies reported.

But Mr. Hadley added a note of conditionality, calling it a “framework for compromise,” and Mr. Warner said that only President Bush’s signature on the bill would complete the agreement.

Mr. Bush welcomed the accord, which he said met his key test of allowing the Central Intelligence Agency’s interrogations of terror suspects to continue.

“I’m pleased to say this agreement preserves the single most potent tool we have in protecting America and foiling terrorist attacks,” he said in televised remarks. “The agreement clears the way to do what the American people expect us to do — to capture terrorists, to detain terrorists, to question terrorists and then to try them.”

Mr. Bush urged the Congress to send him legislation before it goes into recess next week before the fall elections.

Senator Bill Frist of Tennessee, the majority leader, said the agreement had two key points. “Classified information will not be shared with the terrorists” tried before the tribunals, he said, according to Bloomberg News. And “the very important program of interrogation continues.”

The three senators met today with Mr. Frist of Tennessee, who had been pressing them to find a quick end to an intra-party dispute that awkwardly fell in an election year and on an issue — national security — that the president’s party has sought to make its own.

It was not immediately clear how Democrats — who have largely stood aside while the Republicans feuded — would react to the compromise.

The breakthrough came a day after Republicans shepherding the Bush administration plan through the House of Representatives narrowly averted a setback for the proposal — a matter with national security and political ramifications in an election year.

The three senators have contended that the administration was undermining Geneva Convention protections in a way that could leave Americans vulnerable in the future, and that its plan for military tribunals of terror suspects would allow evidence obtained coercively, and information they were not allowed to see to be used against them.

The three had received a high-profile vote of support when Colin L:. Powell, Mr. Bush’s first secretary of state, said that the changes backed by the administration could lead the world to “doubt the moral basis” of the American-led fight against terrorism.

Mr. Bush had threatened last week to end C.I.A. interrogations of terror suspects if his proposals were not approved. “Time’s running out,” he said last Friday in emphatic tones.

But over the weekend, in the face of the senators’ unexpectedly stout resistance, administration officials suddenly opened the door to compromise. Intricate negotiations ensued, and the White House reportedly dropped its insistence on redefining American obligations under the Geneva Conventions.

The White House has said that if interrogations are to go forward against suspects it says may possess information that could prevent planned attacks, it needs to clarify the Geneva limits on interrogation techniques.

But its opponents said that the clarification — the administration never said exactly which interrogation procedures it favored — would open the way for other countries with less respect for human rights to interpret the Geneva rules as they see fit.

Representative Duncan Hunter of California, the chairman of the House Armed Services Committee, said House Republican leaders continued to oppose providing classified evidence to terror suspects. He said that on at least two occasions, which he did not describe, Osama bin Laden was known to have received classified information that had been presented in American courts.

Earlier, Mr. Hunter predicted that the House would “be able to get a bill very soon,” after it had time to study the new agreement. He said he and fellow Republican representatives would “have some recommendations with respect to classified information.”

The Bush administration has said that it essentially halted C.I.A. interrogations after the Supreme Court ruled in June that an administration plan to try terror suspects before military tribunals fell afoul both of the Geneva Conventions and American law.

The proposed legislation is meant to address the court’s concerns.


i'm hoping frist's insistence that defendents not see classified material doesn't mean they won't see _anything_ about why they are being charged - but maybe the good guys finally made a bit of a dent in bush's position.
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kame



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't even really muster up cautious optimism here. If a defendant is not aware of the evidence against them, then it is still a sham trial. You do not have to disclose the details on how you got the evidence to still present the evidence itself.

But.

An unbiased, impartial person, let's call them a Judge, needs access to those methods to make sure they are in accordance with the law.

And if it is found that the CIA had violated the Geneva convention during their interrogations of terror suspects, then those who ordered them to do it need to be brought to trial as well.
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jsimpleton



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Desire wrote:
It kind of freaked me out though that Bush scares my dad too. My dad isn't the type of man to be afraid of anyone.


It could be because Bush is like a small child playing with very big guns. And that's pretty damn scary.
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it occurred to me today, and unfortunately, that the relative ease with which this "compromise" was reached today makes it likely that the whole Republican rebellion schtick was solely for the benefit of the 2008 McCain V Clinton Show


until we see real text and curbing of the Bush and his CIA inquisitors i'm afraid it's all a little too convenient.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Major Tom wrote:
it occurred to me today, and unfortunately, that the relative ease with which this "compromise" was reached today makes it likely that the whole Republican rebellion schtick was solely for the benefit of the 2008 McCain V Clinton Show


until we see real text and curbing of the Bush and his CIA inquisitors i'm afraid it's all a little too convenient.


I dunno, there's been local rumors adrift that if Lynn Swann Wins the PA Gubernatorial race, that he may then set his sights even higher. Then again, maybe a certain 'Governator' might make a move for the top spot.
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rm



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

that's a joke, right? in the first place, lynn swann isn't going to win this race. did he really say that he would run for congress... or president?
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Major Tom



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

arnold isn't allowed to be president


besides that, what the fuck does someone else's plans have to do with negating my theory of the little fallacy play being held for mccain's benefit?

are you saying lynn swann has some direct influence on the "negotiations" surrounding the torturing of bush's prisoners?

how's that work?
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kame



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lynn Swann, oh the former Steeler great trying to ride the coat tails of his football exploits to political office? Uh, yeah, sure. I remember he was asked what his stance was on some subject or another (abortion?) and he had no opinion, and no clue.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MT: I'm not saying he has anything to do with torture or any influence with regards to our application of it. And who's to say that from now to 08 the constituion won't be raped to the the point where Ah-nold could run.

kame wrote:
Lynn Swann, oh the former Steeler great trying to ride the coat tails of his football exploits to political office? Uh, yeah, sure. I remember he was asked what his stance was on some subject or another (abortion?) and he had no opinion, and no clue.


Yeah and? This is Pennsylvania. Our current Governor's most notable accomplishment before being elected was bankrupting the City of Philadelphia. Oh he also signed a bill into law that allowed adults to NOT have to wear helmets when riding motorcycles, and his approval rating went UP afterwards. Also what does his having been an NFL player have to do with anything? That will only help him I'm sure. Being famous works, I mean, look at Reagan.
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Darqcyde



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

rm wrote:
that's a joke, right? in the first place, lynn swann isn't going to win this race. did he really say that he would run for congress... or president?


I said rumored (he gave a somewhat neutral response when questioned along these lines on a local radio shows a few weeks ago), I would see his getting the nod as more of a strawman miraculously dodging the torch bearers.
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