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[4/29/13] She Misandried Me!
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Geareye wrote:
Valerie wrote:

pure gold


This. So much this. You get all the cookies of the cosmos.


Yay! *noms* <3
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3448
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
I think we can agree that men have trouble in some aspects and women have trouble in some aspects and that these are directly connected and that feminism supports getting rid of all of it.

I still haven't figured out why people get all "WHAT ABOUT MY PROBLEMS IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" instead of "oh hey I have problems too, let's fix things together."

Women being hurt is not men's fault, it is society's fault. Men being hurt is not women's fault, it is society's fault. Society is made of every single person in it. If we can change enough individuals, we can change society. We are not going to do that as long as we're at each other's necks.

Most of the men I know believe that women should be paid as much as men. Most of the women I know believe that men can take care of children on their own.

I'm tired of it looking like a battle of the sexes, because it's not. It's people vs. society.

I am way too new to be on a soapbox. Especially considering I only read half the thread. >_>


Where does society come from? What is society? Is it some faceless monster which runs in from the hills, lays down laws, and leaves destruction in its wake?

Is the way to defeat this monster to continue ignoring glaring social inequalities? Are ignorance and denial the arrows that we fling at it, hoping to hit its heart?
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I think we can agree that men have trouble in some aspects and women have trouble in some aspects and that these are directly connected and that feminism supports getting rid of all of it.

I still haven't figured out why people get all "WHAT ABOUT MY PROBLEMS IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" instead of "oh hey I have problems too, let's fix things together."

Women being hurt is not men's fault, it is society's fault. Men being hurt is not women's fault, it is society's fault. Society is made of every single person in it. If we can change enough individuals, we can change society. We are not going to do that as long as we're at each other's necks.

Most of the men I know believe that women should be paid as much as men. Most of the women I know believe that men can take care of children on their own.

I'm tired of it looking like a battle of the sexes, because it's not. It's people vs. society.

I am way too new to be on a soapbox. Especially considering I only read half the thread. >_>


Where does society come from? What is society? Is it some faceless monster which runs in from the hills, lays down laws, and leaves destruction in its wake?

Is the way to defeat this monster to continue ignoring glaring social inequalities? Are ignorance and denial the arrows that we fling at it, hoping to hit its heart?


I already addressed all of that, actually.
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I think we can agree that men have trouble in some aspects and women have trouble in some aspects and that these are directly connected and that feminism supports getting rid of all of it.

I still haven't figured out why people get all "WHAT ABOUT MY PROBLEMS IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" instead of "oh hey I have problems too, let's fix things together."

Women being hurt is not men's fault, it is society's fault. Men being hurt is not women's fault, it is society's fault. Society is made of every single person in it. If we can change enough individuals, we can change society. We are not going to do that as long as we're at each other's necks.

Most of the men I know believe that women should be paid as much as men. Most of the women I know believe that men can take care of children on their own.

I'm tired of it looking like a battle of the sexes, because it's not. It's people vs. society.

I am way too new to be on a soapbox. Especially considering I only read half the thread. >_>


Where does society come from? What is society? Is it some faceless monster which runs in from the hills, lays down laws, and leaves destruction in its wake?

Is the way to defeat this monster to continue ignoring glaring social inequalities? Are ignorance and denial the arrows that we fling at it, hoping to hit its heart?


I already addressed all of that, actually.


I feel like the forums could use a "like" button of some sort :)
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3448
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I think we can agree that men have trouble in some aspects and women have trouble in some aspects and that these are directly connected and that feminism supports getting rid of all of it.

I still haven't figured out why people get all "WHAT ABOUT MY PROBLEMS IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" instead of "oh hey I have problems too, let's fix things together."

Women being hurt is not men's fault, it is society's fault. Men being hurt is not women's fault, it is society's fault. Society is made of every single person in it. If we can change enough individuals, we can change society. We are not going to do that as long as we're at each other's necks.

Most of the men I know believe that women should be paid as much as men. Most of the women I know believe that men can take care of children on their own.

I'm tired of it looking like a battle of the sexes, because it's not. It's people vs. society.

I am way too new to be on a soapbox. Especially considering I only read half the thread. >_>


Where does society come from? What is society? Is it some faceless monster which runs in from the hills, lays down laws, and leaves destruction in its wake?

Is the way to defeat this monster to continue ignoring glaring social inequalities? Are ignorance and denial the arrows that we fling at it, hoping to hit its heart?


I already addressed all of that, actually.


Then I am confused by what you are saying. Because you appear to be saying don't bother with individuals (men) but change society - which is made of individuals. There appears to be no space in what you've written for institutional social inequality.
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10953
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Thu May 02, 2013 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reader1 wrote:
Dogen wrote:
you keep saying things like "all of those can be improved through learning" but your opinion isn't really evidence of anything


thats why its an opinion Wink

No, an opinion can be either informed or not. An informed opinion is worth something, and uninformed one is often not (there are probably exceptions, though). That's why I include links with so many of my posts - you can tell when my opinions are supplemented by knowledge, rather than being stabs in the dark.

Quote:
also there are major flaws with intelligence tests, people who take them over and over again become better at taking them. does that mean you learn to do better on intelligence tests or that your IQ has gone up? and whatís the difference? also what is the test really supposed to measure? speed? processing power? processing power/time? it all seems rather poorly defined...

Yes, intelligence is hard to define. Each test measures slightly different things. The WAIS-IV measures verbal reasoning, perceptual reasoning, working memory, and processing speed across 15 different subsets of questions. It's the most widely used IQ test, but it does tend to favor whites and asians, and there is some mild test-retest improvement (if you retest after 4 months you can expect to gain an average of 4 IQ points, but if the retest is 2 years after the first the scores should be essentially the same). There are other tests, such as the Stanford-Binet and the CFIT (developed by a personal favorite of mine, Cattell, and intended to be culture fair). The CFIT measures crystallized and fluid intelligence and uses Raven's Progressive Matrices, which are based on pattern recognition. Pattern recognition has been shown to correlate strongly with ingenuity and flexibility (being able to adapt what you know to a new situation).

Quote:
if you want to know what i base my opinion on just out of curiosity then all i have to go on is logic. take abstract thought for example. that could be defined as all the way's in which a person is capable of thinking. teach them a new way of thinking and by definition they now have a larger capacity for abstract thought

If a person is capable of thinking in that way, have you made them smarter by exposing them to it, or is the measure of intelligence the capacity? A less intelligent person, for instance, might be unable to learn this new way of thinking - they lack the capacity. That's the difference between intelligence and education. Which is why it's important that IQ tests have generally good test-retest validity over time, because you keep learning new things but your capacity presumably stays the same. This is demonstrated in an odd way by IQ tests, which is that your actual IQ score changes over time (because crystallized intelligence is "stuff you know") but your relative position within a cohort is usually stable (if you scored at the top at test 1, you generally score at the top on test 2).
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
Then I am confused by what you are saying. Because you appear to be saying don't bother with individuals (men) but change society - which is made of individuals. There appears to be no space in what you've written for institutional social inequality.


I didn't think I was so unclear. Let me try again.

Valerie wrote:
I think we can agree that men have trouble in some aspects and women have trouble in some aspects and that these are directly connected and that feminism supports getting rid of all of it.

I still haven't figured out why people get all "WHAT ABOUT MY PROBLEMS IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" instead of "oh hey I have problems too, let's fix things together."


We should not fight men. We should work together with men.
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Leohan



Joined: 27 Mar 2007
Posts: 1112

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie is saying words of wisdom.

Although her avatar seems to disagree
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Leohan wrote:
Valerie is saying words of wisdom.

Although her avatar seems to disagree


My avatar is fighting society, not men. Razz

For serious, I've just always loved 'Nique. She don't take no guff.
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