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MRA 101
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9580

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
The situation, maybe, but not our fundamental reaction to it.


If your fundamental reaction to the situation doesn't change to address the monkeywrench that is religious objection, it's bound to fail.

The response here is a perfect example: you had your Monster Mohel moment - were you a person in a position to actionably change the situation as a legislator, you have handed your opposition all it needs to tar and feather you and put you through all kinds of hoops. You would be described as repressive and bigoted against jews, that you called judaism "fucking evil," now you're an antisemite, a bigot, etc.

The situation grows into a precarious battle against entrenched religious mentalities. WELCOME TO HELLLLLL

This is happening all over the world, too. A wonderfully curious side effect is the extent to which it unites jews and muslims to adamantly protest laws against circumcision.
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Sam



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 9580

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I should also restate my opinion on the circumcision debate: the best way to troll a forum is to start a 'sincere' thread about the barbarous mutilation of children's penises, barbarism mutilate barbarians mutilated mutilate maimed penises mutilate. It's seriously the worst.

Fortunately the solution is pretty easy: get uncircumcised penises in porn and time will do the rest
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12300
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Fortunately the solution is pretty easy: get uncircumcised penises in porn and time will do the rest

Brings a whole new meaning to the term "uncut version."
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Him



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 4191
Location: On edge

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sam wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
The situation, maybe, but not our fundamental reaction to it.


If your fundamental reaction to the situation doesn't change to address the monkeywrench that is religious objection, it's bound to fail.

The response here is a perfect example: you had your Monster Mohel moment - were you a person in a position to actionably change the situation as a legislator, you have handed your opposition all it needs to tar and feather you and put you through all kinds of hoops. You would be described as repressive and bigoted against jews, that you called judaism "fucking evil," now you're an antisemite, a bigot, etc.

The situation grows into a precarious battle against entrenched religious mentalities. WELCOME TO HELLLLLL

This is happening all over the world, too. A wonderfully curious side effect is the extent to which it unites jews and muslims to adamantly protest laws against circumcision.

This. And while I might be opposed to circumcision of children, without a valid medical reason, as such...that doesn't really change that the religious side of it is way more complex. I mean God quite explicitly says if you are a believer you must circumcise your male children. Because God either has a very weird foreskin collection going or is just doing his old practical joke routine "Hahaha! They're really doing it! I'm brilliant! What should I make them do next?".
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6108
Location: California

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
or is just doing his old practical joke routine "Hahaha! They're really doing it! I'm brilliant! What should I make them do next?".


i am positive that in the early days of Christianity, some theologian read over the Hebrew Bible and thought exactly that.

i don't know if that theologian has been remembered by history, but there is no way that absolutely no one who read the Hebrew Bible looked at that shit and thought God was, like, the best prankster ever.
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Arc Tempest



Joined: 28 Jan 2007
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Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And lo, when the fundamentalists did rise to heaven did they discover that Yahweh was but an aspect of Coyote.
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WheelsOfConfusion



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 12300
Location: Unknown Kaddath

PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
I mean God quite explicitly says if you are a believer you must circumcise your male children.

Actually God required it only of Israelites as part of the covenant between himself and the Hebrews. In the New Testament there was a bit of a dust-up between the Apostles as to whether gentiles needed to observe the custom (along with dietary and other Jewish laws). In the books we have, Paul supposedly settled the question in the negative. Christian gentiles don't need to get circumcised any more than they need to keep kosher.
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Gibson22



Joined: 01 Jul 2012
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I noticed you guys going on about this. There are definitely medical benefits to circumcision. I also know you guys talked about the law of Moses and how that could have possibly been brought about for medical reasons ("we don't know how to cook pork...probably should stop eating it").

Anyway, I read this article one time before. Some parents are also against giving their child immunization shots, but the doctors allow after injecting them with some nerve-wrecking peril.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/27/health/aap-circumcision-recommendation

Quite possibly this could have been another observation made over time among the Jewish people and now we are starting see viable reasons for it.
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Heretical Rants



Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 5344
Location: No.

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, I totally agree. The benefits of eliminating all risk of cuticle cancer totally outweighed all of the risk of surgically removing toenails back in the day, and also the benefits of the toenails themselves. Especially when the closest thing to disinfectant used was the mohel's mouth! And I'm sure there's no particular reason those evolved the way they did or anything, either. Excellent point, that's totally why the tradition developed.

It's also why we routinely do mastectomy at birth, appendectomy at birth, tonsillectomy at birth, etc, and have done for millennia!
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 683

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HR, if you're trying to convey any other idea than "I hate the thought of anyone getting circumcised with a firey passion and think the practice should stop entirely regardless of anyone's reasons for wanting it done and LALALALAICAN'THEARYOULALALA" you uh, aren't succeeding.

Perhaps you can come up with a reason to support your position that doesn't include calling anyone that doesn't entirely agree with you "fucking evil" or stupid.
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Felgraf



Joined: 10 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Though not HR, I do share the believe that circumcission *at childhood* should be stopped, unless there really is an overarchig medical reason (foreskin is too short, will not retract fully, etc. Though those, I think, don't show up until adolesence?)

If they wish to have their foreskin removed *When they are capable of making their own decisions* as a religious rite-of-passage, that should be OK and legal *as long as they are of legal age to make the decision, and not pressured into it*.

But unnecessary surgery on a bit of anatomy that is pretty much only going to be seen by the parents and the child until adolesence, *ESPECIALLY* for reasons of "So they will look normal", is wrong. Yeah, it'll probably hurt more if they get circumcised as an adult. Or, rather, they'll *remember* it hurting, as opposed to being too young to. I also think getting your baby's ears pierced is pretty screwed up, too.
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DeD CHiKn



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
Posts: 10227
Location: Baltimore, Maryla*gunshot*

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
I also think getting your baby's ears pierced is pretty screwed up, too.


There may be a connection to getting a babies ears pierced and nickel allergies in adult life, especially if you use 14k studs during the healing process. Something about the age vs. likelihood of allergy.

You are introducing nickel to a healing wound that the body perceives the nickel as the cause and later in life still recognizes nickel as harmful.
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 3429
Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Felgraf wrote:
Though not HR, I do share the believe that circumcission *at childhood* should be stopped, unless there really is an overarchig medical reason (foreskin is too short, will not retract fully, etc. Though those, I think, don't show up until adolesence?)

If they wish to have their foreskin removed *When they are capable of making their own decisions* as a religious rite-of-passage, that should be OK and legal *as long as they are of legal age to make the decision, and not pressured into it*.

But unnecessary surgery on a bit of anatomy that is pretty much only going to be seen by the parents and the child until adolesence, *ESPECIALLY* for reasons of "So they will look normal", is wrong. Yeah, it'll probably hurt more if they get circumcised as an adult. Or, rather, they'll *remember* it hurting, as opposed to being too young to. I also think getting your baby's ears pierced is pretty screwed up, too.


I am of this opinion as well. I also think that parents and other people making decisions about children should not be allowed to perform gender assigning surgeries for a medically unnecessary reason to children with ambiguous genitalia - and I think these two opinions go well together.
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TIAB



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I am of this opinion as well. I also think that parents and other people making decisions about children should not be allowed to perform gender assigning surgeries for a medically unnecessary reason to children with ambiguous genitalia - and I think these two opinions go well together.


As a standalone statement I understand what you are saying, but I'm a bit at a loss within the context of the topic of circumcision. Is the implication that circumcision is a gender assigning surgery? Because that doesn't mesh with what I understand about circumcisions. Could you clarify?
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