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MRA 101
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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Location: Land of the Grumpuses

PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heretical Rants wrote:
Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
I actually think the problem is that HR is falling for a false equivalence between "MRA" and "feminism".


*ragequits forever*


thanks, Monkey! You're always a great help.


Can you explain what you mean, then? Before you leave? Because I have no clue what you were trying to say. It is unclear.
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Alpha Aim



Joined: 19 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:


This


Whoa, extensive...
Bookmarked.

Seems like an unwinnable game, this whole thing. Or playing Minesweeper on hardcore mode.
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Dogen



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I have no idea what HR was talking about either, and apparently neither did Sammy (she said as much three times). I've never known HR not to be able to express herself in a way that allows her to be understood prior to this. I'm curious what she meant, too.

(that second-to-last sentence seems convoluted, but the rent is too damn high and I am too damn tired to try and re-write it, so I'll just apologize)
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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Him wrote:
TRIGGER WARNING:
"A Voice For Men" speculate that rape survivors...actually enjoy being raped.
Of course the study Paul Elam claims to cite says nothing of the sort, but then again what is the "Men's Right Movement" really if not a cover for rapists and abusers? I mean seriously.


I absolutely loathe Paul Elam and A Voice For Men and all its supporters. I desperately wish they would buy a spaceship and go live on Pluto.
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Finnegan



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snorri wrote:
Heretical Rants wrote:
It's not a competition for who's more oppressed.


Says you. I fully intend to win the oppression olympics.


fuck you, dude. I'm way more oppressed than you!
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Him



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
is it possible to advocate rights for men in the narrow and comparatively small areas where they deserve more rights without being an MRA? I mean, gender norms hurt everyone, create identities we compare ourselves to and usually that leads to some sort of psychological damage or societal issues. I personally think our gender norms hurt women more than men (because women HAVE gender more than men do, in our society). I also think that in some cases, our gender norms also hurt men, albeit in a less restrictive and easier to surmount way.

Would my last two sentences qualify me as an MRA?

No, no it doesn't.

Also see this piece:
Fringe Misogynists Expose Themselves To The Houston Chronicle

Because it's worth to remember that while misogyny is certainly common, the "Men's Rights Movement" itself is pretty damn minor in comparison. In the same ways that while racism is very common, groups that organize explicitly on racist grounds are, usually, pretty fringe.

They both might be representative, or a symptom of, structures that run pretty deep but to see them as the sole representative of those structures is to miss the point. To see them as representatives for issues concerning men (or issues concerning white people) is even worse. There is no equivalence. The other wrong turn one can make is to say "oh so both feminists and MRA's are fringe" because while MRA's as an org are fringe they are still not really an underdog here. They are aided by the larger culture of misogyny.
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fritterdonut



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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I may be horribly wrong here, but:



Heretical Rants wrote:
Saying that someone who holds viewpoints like Thenadathor's couldn't identify as an MRA (or whatever) because they don't think "improvement in women's conditions necessarily harms men" is the same as saying someone like Samsally couldn't identify as a feminist because she's not, for example, a transphobic radfem.

This stupid divisive bullshit breeds hypocrisy. I am annoyed.


Heretical Rants wrote:
I'm objecting to the idiotic squabbles between these groups. Both have idiots with completely objectionable beliefs in their ranks, both have legitimate issues to address, and yet it's apparently fine for us to blanket hate on just the one of them.


It seems that HR is frustrated that people assume MRAs are the antithesis of feminists and that saying all MRAs are misogynistic is like saying that all feminists must be transphobic (just because some are).

As a result it's okay to hate one but not the other, even though they both have palpable issues that need to be addressed.

DISCLAIMER: This is an interpretation of HR's posts that may or may not be accurate to HR's original intentions, if not, I sincerely apologize.

DISCLAIMER 2: I don't actually give a fuck either way (MRA vs. Feminism), I just try to treat people with the same amount (or lack thereof) of decency.
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mouse



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i have to add myself to the list of people who don't understand why HR is upset, but i think the critical point is "Saying that someone who holds viewpoints like Thenadathor's couldn't identify as an MRA" - i was getting the idea that Thenadathor did _not_ want to identify with, or be identified as, an MRA. now, i could be wrong in assuming MRAs are bad things, because of what has been posted about here. i am of the flavor of feminist who feels that men are also harmed by the gender assumptions our society makes, and i don't think it's wrong to try to address those, nor do i think we have to deal with all of women's issues before we deal with any men's issues...which was what i was trying to get across.

if Thenadathor _wants_ to identify as an MRA, of course he is more than welcome to, all he has to do is say "i'm an MRA!" but around here, that is likely to subject him to abuse that he doesn't really deserve (judging from his expressed opinions). and if i misjudged how he wants to be identified, i apologize.
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stripeypants



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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think radfems are a part of feminism, as any extremist group is part of the parent group. I think they're wrong, but I acknowledge and accept their existence.

What is the greater group that MRAs are extremists for?
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

stripeypants wrote:
I think radfems are a part of feminism, as any extremist group is part of the parent group. I think they're wrong, but I acknowledge and accept their existence.

What is the greater group that MRAs are extremists for?


people, mostly men, I guess, who understand the subtlety of gender politics?
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Thenadathor



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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 12:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mouse wrote:
i have to add myself to the list of people who don't understand why HR is upset, but i think the critical point is "Saying that someone who holds viewpoints like Thenadathor's couldn't identify as an MRA" - i was getting the idea that Thenadathor did _not_ want to identify with, or be identified as, an MRA. now, i could be wrong in assuming MRAs are bad things, because of what has been posted about here. i am of the flavor of feminist who feels that men are also harmed by the gender assumptions our society makes, and i don't think it's wrong to try to address those, nor do i think we have to deal with all of women's issues before we deal with any men's issues...which was what i was trying to get across.

if Thenadathor _wants_ to identify as an MRA, of course he is more than welcome to, all he has to do is say "i'm an MRA!" but around here, that is likely to subject him to abuse that he doesn't really deserve (judging from his expressed opinions). and if i misjudged how he wants to be identified, i apologize.


Yeah, thats a great analysis. I am glad I explained myself well enough Smile. If you are curious about how I "identify", I would say I am fairly... postmodern? I think dehumanizing and dogma are the problem, regardless of the ideology in question. I think society would benefit from not caring as much about gender. I think if the political place of gender in terms of identity formation was as politically charged and controlled as, I dont know, favourite colour or favourite food or something less politicised, I think that for me is the goal. I am demisexual, so I guess my ideology on gender basically flows from that. TLDR, people are beautiful and amazing and I want to hug and kiss all of you, and I find your gender uninteresting in that process.
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Monkey Mcdermott



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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thenadathor wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
I think radfems are a part of feminism, as any extremist group is part of the parent group. I think they're wrong, but I acknowledge and accept their existence.

What is the greater group that MRAs are extremists for?


people, mostly men, I guess, who understand the subtlety of gender politics?


The entire point of most MRA is precisely that they don't understand the subtlety of gender politics.
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Thenadathor



Joined: 17 Jul 2012
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkey Mcdermott wrote:
Thenadathor wrote:
stripeypants wrote:
I think radfems are a part of feminism, as any extremist group is part of the parent group. I think they're wrong, but I acknowledge and accept their existence.

What is the greater group that MRAs are extremists for?


people, mostly men, I guess, who understand the subtlety of gender politics?


The entire point of most MRA is precisely that they don't understand the subtlety of gender politics.


I agree that they don't understand the subtlety of gender politics. I don't think calling that the point makes sense, though.
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Yinello



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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If MRAs were actually fighting for men’s rights, they’d be called something else: they’d be called feminists!
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CTrees



Joined: 21 Jul 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not the worst thing about them, by far, but the thing that gets on my nerves the most about "Men's Rights Advocates" is the name.

I care about men's rights. For instance, in abusive relationships, it's often the man that's the victim - the lack of men's shelters (despite the plethora of women's shelters) seems like a real problem. Further, many women's shelters ban male children over a certain age -a woman fleeing an abusive spouse with her also-abused children should be able to bring them with her, even if one happens to be a sixteen year old boy. Different tack, the issues and suspicions facing male teachers have demonstrably led to our current dearth of male teachers, particularly in lower grades.

So, yeah, men's rights are important, too! And hey, look at that - those guys are men's rights advocates! This should be great; some real discussion about serious and oft ignored problems faced on the spear half of the gender politics spectrum! Only... wait, why are these guys terrible? Why am I reminded of the irony of groups that are "pro-life" killing doctors? Guys... stahp... Well, maybe it's just this one group. And... nope, "MRA" turns out to be a code word not for people that advocate on behalf of the rights of men, but rather for terrible neanderthals. And they've so horribly tainted the very term "men's rights" that bringing up any men's issues, even with massive caveats and cited studies backing up your commentary, is veiwed with at best suspicion and more commonly with outright rage.

...

Welp, that was a coffee-fueled, incoherent ramble. But my point is, the terminology bothers me.
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