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[4/30/13] I'm Perfectly Safe
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Reader1



Joined: 04 Feb 2012
Posts: 111

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rune wrote:
What you just did there, telling women what they should and shouldn't really be worried about when it comes to harassment? That's Mansplaining, right there. Your whole comment was 'splainy.

please don't just cast a blanket statement and leave it at that, i'd be grateful if you'd take the time to pick my statements apart in the future. maybe it didn't translate well enough, but what i wanted to get across was that i believe harassment is worse than verbal abuse. do you not agree that having someone stalk you is worse than a cat call(what I consider a cat call vvv)? it seems fairly straightforward to me that one is more dangerous than the other. also in the link you included, everything that has been mentioned in the thread is listed as harassment. Thatís not in line with most textbook definitions of the word. if you are using that definition you may be faulting me just because we use the word differently. verbal abuse is the term used for insults or demeaning comments, the only reason I was hesitant in using it was because Iím not sure it covers vulgar/sexist remarks. I also think we may perceive cat calls differently. I generally think of them as purely verbal, vulgar/sexist remarks, usually singular in nature. Some of the behavior that was related to ďcat callsĒ in the link you posted was not just rude but demeaning. another thing i might mention, i don't curse. so if "insensitive jerk" didn't seem like a severe enough way of describing people who participate in what you call "street harassment" perhaps that might explain why. please be open, donít make assumptions, donít label others, and always have the perspective that you may be incorrect, misinformed, or ignorant, even If you have a Ph.D. in whatever subject youíre talking about. I understand that I donít have an accurate understanding of what ďharassmentĒ(youíre version of harassment) is comprised of. Never experienced it, never heard others talk about it, never researched it. my field of reference for the subject is very limitedÖ. After going through all that Iíd like to talk about the article you posted. I agree that everything mentioned there (leering is different than staring correct?) are actions that make for a terrible environment. But like I stated before, I donít remember ever seeing a case of it. now that does not mean I never have(I wasnít looking for it), and it certainly doesnít mean that it doesnít happen. It does mean however that i have no experience that helps to make the situation real for me. my life stays pretty static and Iím fortunate enough to have friends that truly care about others. It makes for comfortable living but doesnít help very much with measuring gender inequality. The best I can do is videos http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/03/belgium-film-street-harassment-sofie-peeters and even then I have a hard time because of the way my mind works. because I didnít see it in person one of the nagging questions in my head is ďis this real or could it have been scripted?Ē it may also be that I live in an area where it isnít as prevalent, but again I wouldnít know. If you donít mind sharing, how were you introduced to this issue, and how often do you encounter it? (sry for the long post)
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Monkey Mcdermott



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3316

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reader1 wrote:
Rune wrote:
What you just did there, telling women what they should and shouldn't really be worried about when it comes to harassment? That's Mansplaining, right there. Your whole comment was 'splainy.

please don't just cast a blanket statement and leave it at that, i'd be grateful if you'd take the time to pick my statements apart in the future. maybe it didn't translate well enough, but what i wanted to get across was that i believe harassment is worse than verbal abuse. do you not agree that having someone stalk you is worse than a cat call(what I consider a cat call vvv)? it seems fairly straightforward to me that one is more dangerous than the other. also in the link you included, everything that has been mentioned in the thread is listed as harassment. Thatís not in line with most textbook definitions of the word. if you are using that definition you may be faulting me just because we use the word differently. verbal abuse is the term used for insults or demeaning comments, the only reason I was hesitant in using it was because Iím not sure it covers vulgar/sexist remarks. I also think we may perceive cat calls differently. I generally think of them as purely verbal, vulgar/sexist remarks, usually singular in nature. Some of the behavior that was related to ďcat callsĒ in the link you posted was not just rude but demeaning. another thing i might mention, i don't curse. so if "insensitive jerk" didn't seem like a severe enough way of describing people who participate in what you call "street harassment" perhaps that might explain why. please be open, donít make assumptions, donít label others, and always have the perspective that you may be incorrect, misinformed, or ignorant, even If you have a Ph.D. in whatever subject youíre talking about. I understand that I donít have an accurate understanding of what ďharassmentĒ(youíre version of harassment) is comprised of. Never experienced it, never heard others talk about it, never researched it. my field of reference for the subject is very limitedÖ. After going through all that Iíd like to talk about the article you posted. I agree that everything mentioned there (leering is different than staring correct?) are actions that make for a terrible environment. But like I stated before, I donít remember ever seeing a case of it. now that does not mean I never have(I wasnít looking for it), and it certainly doesnít mean that it doesnít happen. It does mean however that i have no experience that helps to make the situation real for me. my life stays pretty static and Iím fortunate enough to have friends that truly care about others. It makes for comfortable living but doesnít help very much with measuring gender inequality. The best I can do is videos http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/aug/03/belgium-film-street-harassment-sofie-peeters and even then I have a hard time because of the way my mind works. because I didnít see it in person one of the nagging questions in my head is ďis this real or could it have been scripted?Ē it may also be that I live in an area where it isnít as prevalent, but again I wouldnít know. If you donít mind sharing, how were you introduced to this issue, and how often do you encounter it? (sry for the long post)



.....

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Yinello



Joined: 10 May 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



Reader, I don't know why you want Rune to give you a full detailed account of her harassment. If all the stories of so many women online, on this forum and everywhere don't make you believe it, how can Rune?
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stripeypants



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is good to break up paragraphs for ease of reading.

Reader1 wrote:
I also sort of feel like throwing my idea of harassment out there as well. If a person makes you uncomfortable either verbally or with their presence itís not harassment. Examples: cat calls, ogling, starring like a creep, dressing oddly, being unhygienic, making insults, etc. to be harassment, a single encounter needs to be drawn out or multiple encounters need to take place. Examples: someone sees you at a park and follows you around wherever you go, continuous unwanted emails, a person knows your schedule and repeatedly ďbumps into youĒ and makes you feel uncomfortable after youíve asked them to stop, someone asks for your number and they just wonít take no for an answerÖ that kind of thing


Why do you define harassment that way, and why do you expect others to accept your definition?

Let me tell you a story. One day a man in an apartment complex I lived in began banging on my door. I'd had a brief onversation with this man once before, and earlier that day he'd randomly handed me a bag of DVDs and a large wooden giraffe. I opened it, which was a mistake.

He babbled at me for a long time, and I was afraid to try and shut the door. At times he called me different names (Actual names, like Rebecca, not insults.). He would switch from talking about how he loves all women "like sisters" to telling me some confusing thing about him spinning me around on his finger if I woke up next to him (It was an allusion to some sexual act, but he wasn't very coherent.). He offered me several hundred dollars (as in holding out money to me) to spend a few hours with him. I told him no. He tried at one point to enter my apartment. I found a good place in the conversation to shut the door.

A little later he came by again and on the door for at least five minutes. I called the cops. By the time they showed up, he was gone. They laughed at me when I said he'd offered me money to 'spend a few hours' with him. They said that I'd have to tell him I wanted no more contact from him before they'd do anything. They didn't consider any of this a problem. They thought it was fucking hilarious.

Never mind this guy was unstable and new where I lived, and had solicited sex from me, and tried to enter my apartment. They decided it was not harassment, was funny, and wasn't worth their time.
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Rune



Joined: 08 Oct 2011
Posts: 1053

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What blanket statement, Reader1? I called out a very specific behavior you exhibited in a specific post, and pointed out exactly what it was. And, really? You drop an unformatted text brick and it's up to me to separate your points out? No thanks.

Your lines drawn between my analogy and the possible harassment scenario are bogus. Your presence there might very well be directly affecting her. It might not be your fault. You're right about one thing, this whole mess is rape culture's fault, and the fault of those who do stalk and harass deliberately.

But then why do you get all huffy about being freaking ~inconvenienced~ (and I cannot possibly convey through text the warbling scorn that word deserves here) by being put upon to make someone else not FEAR FOR THEIR SAFETY? Both of you are being affected by the same icky-nasty rape culture, but you want to wash your hands of it like its not your problem. You want to make it entirely HER problem, because you have the luxury of ignoring it if you want to, and doing so for you isn't being careless with your personal safety. That's one of the definitions of privilege right there: the luxury to ignore. She doesn't have that.

If you want to put the blame where it belongs, then put the blame where it actually belongs, and don't just shrug your shoulders and act like the woman SHOULD have to bear all of the consequences of a rape culture that she is not at fault for, but you don't.

Because it's not your fault?

Cry me a river.

Pack up your hair-splitting hierarchy of what you think is worse, (as if that makes any of those behaviors any less than 100% unacceptable, or otherwise matters to anyone else but you,) and put them away. They don't matter. Other people get to define their own experiences. Not you. And you've got no idea what you're talking about.

Check your privilege 101: Other people don't have to address their problems on your terms.


Last edited by Rune on Fri May 03, 2013 7:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Geareye



Joined: 21 Mar 2013
Posts: 281

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a totally different note, here's another advice for Reader1.

Use bloody paragraphs in your texts. And I say it with every bit of good intentions I have . Use them. Seperate them.

Like this.

Walls of texts are unreadable.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reader1 wrote:

I agree with this. it never hurts to go a little out of your way to help someone out or make them feel comfortable, but Iíd also like to clarify something/play devilís advocate if people wind up disagreeing with me. In situations like Leohanís, just because someone realizes they might be perceived as threatening doesnít mean they are then obliged to go out of their way to make others around them comfortable. A person isnít actually doing anything wrong in the ethical sense until they intentionally act to upset another.


If you realize that what you're doing is bothering someone, and you make a conscious decision not to do anything differently, then you are intentionally acting in a way that you know bothers that person.
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MerchManDan



Joined: 20 Nov 2007
Posts: 2011
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
Rune wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Interesting... Can I ask a question now?

Personally, walking is my way of transport, I think that I already commented elsewhere that I don't mind walking at night, either, and I tend to use hoodies to top that because my city's very windy and I like my head to be protected.

If someone that happens to walk my same path feels threatened by me and I don't realize that, am I a harasser? Since, as we said, the harassed defines the harasser and harassment can happen before an actual interaction.

EDIT: Also I really like this topic. Learning lots of things about the nature of harassment.


This is where the distinction I laid out comes in. The person can feel harassed, and have that be perfectly valid, without you necessarily needing to be labeled a harasser. Your own defining moment comes when you realize what the other person is or might be experiencing, and how much you care about other people feeling comfortable and safe vs. how much you take it personally and disregard or escalate the situation.


This.

I always feel safer when a man who's walking in my direction crosses the street. I don't know if any of them have done it on purpose because they don't want me to feel threatened, but if it is on purpose, they are considerate guys and they get 100 points from me.

I read about a man once who purposely waits for the next elevator car if there's a woman alone in the one that stops for him (because a small space where the two of them are alone might make her feel afraid). People who think about that sort of thing and try to avoid it are great.

So, the best guys are the ones who actively avoid women.

That's pretty funny.
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aboutwhistles



Joined: 28 Oct 2012
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The best men are the ones who actively avoid women (in public) (that they don't know). CONTEXT.
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Valerie



Joined: 02 Apr 2013
Posts: 263

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

aboutwhistles wrote:
The best men are the ones who actively avoid women (in public) (that they don't know). CONTEXT.


(when they are making the women uncomfortable). But yes.

Anyone who is considerate of another person is a good person. Is someone actually disagreeing with me about this?
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Hekateras



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every argument about this kind of harassment I've seen at some point devolves into some kind of befuddled attempt at oversimplification. "But then how are men supposed to talk to women?" "Wait, so a good man is a man who never approaches women at all, is that it?" "You're telling me I should never talk to a woman or compliment her on anything ever?" Et cetera.

If only people stopped trying to find cheat codes and blanket walkthrough strategies for dealing with other human beings and simply focused on being considerate and trying to put themselves in the other person's shoes.
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Jody



Joined: 29 Apr 2013
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Valerie wrote:
aboutwhistles wrote:
The best men are the ones who actively avoid women (in public) (that they don't know). CONTEXT.


(when they are making the women uncomfortable). But yes.

Anyone who is considerate of another person is a good person. Is someone actually disagreeing with me about this?


Apparently making someone else uncomfortable is, in fact, the discomforted person's fault.

To presume anything else might make the person who made the first move uncomfortable as well, which is worse, for some reason.

Sorry if that's confusing. The logic of privilege can be difficult to follow.
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ShadowCell



Joined: 03 Aug 2008
Posts: 6080
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PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hekateras wrote:
If only people stopped trying to find cheat codes and blanket walkthrough strategies for dealing with other human beings and simply focused on being considerate and trying to put themselves in the other person's shoes.


besides which it's all irrelevant once you turn on godmode and noclip
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Dogen



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 10796
Location: Bellingham, WA

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Rune wrote:
Leohan wrote:
Interesting... Can I ask a question now?

Personally, walking is my way of transport, I think that I already commented elsewhere that I don't mind walking at night, either, and I tend to use hoodies to top that because my city's very windy and I like my head to be protected.

If someone that happens to walk my same path feels threatened by me and I don't realize that, am I a harasser? Since, as we said, the harassed defines the harasser and harassment can happen before an actual interaction.

EDIT: Also I really like this topic. Learning lots of things about the nature of harassment.


This is where the distinction I laid out comes in. The person can feel harassed, and have that be perfectly valid, without you necessarily needing to be labeled a harasser. Your own defining moment comes when you realize what the other person is or might be experiencing, and how much you care about other people feeling comfortable and safe vs. how much you take it personally and disregard or escalate the situation.


This.

I always feel safer when a man who's walking in my direction crosses the street. I don't know if any of them have done it on purpose because they don't want me to feel threatened, but if it is on purpose, they are considerate guys and they get 100 points from me.

I read about a man once who purposely waits for the next elevator car if there's a woman alone in the one that stops for him (because a small space where the two of them are alone might make her feel afraid). People who think about that sort of thing and try to avoid it are great.

So, the best guys are the ones who actively avoid women.

That's pretty funny.

If you wait until the middle of the night, when she's walking alone on the street, to approach a woman... you might be a creeper.
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Tank



Joined: 20 Sep 2010
Posts: 76

PostPosted: Fri May 03, 2013 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MerchManDan wrote:

So, the best guys are the ones who actively avoid women.

That's pretty funny.


Andy Stitzer is the best guy on the planet.
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